TRANSCRIPTS RELEVANT TO AND USED IN THE HOSER FILES (PARTS OF TRANSCRIPTS CITED) Note: there has been no attempt to order or arrange this lot of transcripts and there are a huge number in this file. They result simply from a disk conversion from an old BBC computer on which they were originally typed and since made into a text file. They are 100 per cent accurate. Please read all information and "codes" at the top of each transcript. To make best use of them we suggest that you search for a name or date and assuming that it exists in this set, you will find it. Most computer word processing programs will allow you to do this. TAPE TRANSCRIPT OF COURT CASE ON 27TH FEBRUARY 1990 OF APPEAL OF BOGUS O'SHANNESSY ASSAULT ASSAULT AND THEFT CHARGES FACED BY HOSER IN THE MELBOURNE COUNTY COURT IN FRONT OF JUDGE KIM. TRANSCRIPT IS DATED, 27/02/90. TAPE IS MARKED (AM). DURATION OF WHOLE CASE WAS ABOUT 30 MINUTES. INFORMATION RELATING TO THE TRANSCRIPT: RECORDING WAS MADE AT MELBOURNE COUNTY COURT. MATERIAL UNDERLINED is not transcript. '...' means voice is inaudible and either fading in or out on the recording. ' MUMBLING ' means that it was not possible to decipher the word/s on the tape recording. NUMBERS IN BRACKETS ARE POSITIONS ON LARGE TAPE RECORDING. KEY. HOSER = RAYMOND (AKA PHILIP) HOSER KIM = JUDGE KIM BINGLEY = ROSS ALLEN BINGLEY PROSECUTER = POLICE PROSECUTER (BARRISTER) COURT STAFF OFFICER = COURT STAFF OFFICER TRANSCRIPT STARTS NOW #*# (1/176) KIM - Mister Hoser. KIM - You are Philip Hoser. HOSER - That's correct your worship. HOSER - Sorry, do I call you your honour or your worship? PROSECUTER - Your honour KIM - You have instructions for these matters. PROSECUTER - That's correct sir, yes. KIM - Yes (1/188) KIM - The appeal is allowed. KIM - The convictions and sentences of the lower courts are set aside. Thatt's it. HOSER - Ah, your honour, can I just raise a couple of matters in relation to this, please. KIM - Pardon. HOSER - Can I raise a couple of matters in relation to this. KIM - What do you wish to say Mister Hoser. HOSER - I'm after costs. HOSER - And, I want to know, I thought, I could bring that up here and now. Because the case has cost me a huge amount of money. The charges were maliciously laid, and I've got documentation here to back up everything I say. KIM - Your application is for costs for today is it. HOSER - No, costs for the previous case, in relation to the whole thing from the word go, the previous case it went three days in the lower court, it cost me an enormous amount of money to fight, an enormous amount of money in lost income as a result of the case, an enormous amount of money as a result of harassment from the police, just money everywhere, I've itemised it all, I've got a list here, I can give that to you now please. KIM - What you are saying. It would not be usual with a matter before a magistrate's court for an appeal, when costs would ordinarily not be awarded. HOSER - If I can produce to you some documentation here, multiple transcripts of the conversation with the informant immediately following the case, three pages, can I please just, If you read that you'll know exactly what I'm talking about, it's only three pages, or I can read it to the court now, whatever you, KIM - What do you say in response to that (TO PROSECUTER) PROSECUTER - Well the application of Mister Hoser, whatever it is, well in any event it can only be the costs of today, if anything, sir he was properly convicted and quite within the magistrates court, there is no basis for him now to apply for costs in relation to what happened there. The crown didn't lead evidence today sir, because the victim is overseas and is not expected to return to give evidence. HOSER - If I can interrupt there your honour. KIM - Do you accept that as your action Mister Hoser. HOSER - Not entirely, I spoke with a girl who alleged to be the sister of the alleged victim, shortly after the case in question, I bumped into her by accident in a disco of all places and it was by fortutious circumstances that I did come, found out who she was, and she informed me that the alleged victim was overseas, ah, was not overseas, but had in fact returned from her holidays to Greece and Spain prior to her previous case. KIM - You had asked her. KIM - You were proposing to call this person as a witness. HOSER - I was going to. I've issued subpoenas for a number of people, not the sister, but a friend of hers who was going to corroborate the same thing, and um, the situation was that after I was told that they were dropping the charges, I didn't go, I'd came into this place and got the subpoeanas done, after that time I received a letter from the DPP indicating they didn't want to procede so I didn't issue the subpoenas. HOSER - I will quite happy to get into the box now, I have written down in this diary the details of the time and date and all the complete relevant conversation. (1/271) KIM - You can't give evidence of what you were told by somebody else. That would be heresay. HOSER - But I can give evidence as to what I wrote in this diary. KIM - Well just the fact that you wrote it down doesn't make it any more admissable. HOSER - Well getting back to your situation, KIM - Well what was your application for costs. HOSER - All right, in my application for costs, I would still ask that you read this three page document since by not doing so, your not acquainting yourself with the details of the case. KIM - You want to get in the box and give evidence do you? HOSER - On this with this document, yes please. (1/285) KIM - Do you wish to enter the witness box to give evidence in form of the magistrates costs. HOSER - Yes your honour. (HOSER GETS IN BOX) COURT STAFF OFFICER - Silence. What is your full name? HOSER - Philip Jacob Hoser, also known as Raymond Hoser. COURT STAFF OFFICER - Would you raise, have you finished. HOSER - Yes, it's all right. COURT STAFF OFFICER - Would you raise the bible in your right hand and repeat after me. HOSER - Can I do an affirmation instead if possible. COURT STAFF OFFICER - Would ... an affirmation your honour. KIM - MUMBLING COURT STAFF OFFICER - Would you repeat after me. I do solemnly, sincerely and truly, HOSER - I do solemnly, sincerely and truly, COURT STAFF OFFICER - Declare and affirm, HOSER - Declare and affirm, COURT STAFF OFFICER - That the evidence I shall give in this case HOSER - That the evidence I shall give in this case, COURT STAFF OFFICER - Shall be the truth, HOSER - Shall be the truth COURT STAFF OFFICER - The whole truth, HOSER - The whole truth COURT STAFF OFFICER - And nothing but the truth, HOSER - And nothing but the truth, COURT STAFF OFFICER - Thank you. KIM - What is your full name, Mister Hoser. HOSER - Philip Jacob Hoser. KIM - Where do you reside, HOSER - Fourty one, four one, Village Avenue, Doncaster, Victoria. KIM - Which Avenue? HOSER - Village avenue. KIM - Village HOSER - Village. KIM - What's your occupation? HOSER - Author KIM - Your making an application for costs, HOSER - That's correct KIM - And your not only making an application for costs, but you are also seeking costs in relation to the proceedings in the lower court. HOSER - That's correct. KIM - What do you wish to say in relation to the matter. HOSER - Right, if I can just be extremely brief. The case arose from an incident in August or September 1987, when I apprehended a regular fare, taxi fare evader, who evaded paying the fare in my taxi, she jumped and ran, ah, I apprehended her and took her to the St. Kilda police station. She assaulted me, did all the various atrocities that one would expect from that sort of person. The police officer concerned, by the name of Ross Bingley did nothing about the, despite my repeated requests for action to be taken against the fare evader, did nothing about the matter and after about an hour or so of pleading with him to do something I was thrown out of the police station. The fare evader was also known to an RTA inspector by the name of Roger Bowman, KIM - Mister Hoser, I'm told by the crown prosecuter that er, the reason why the crown is leading no evidence today is that the person who is the, HOSER - It would be easier if I could finish, then you could ask me, KIM - Wait a moment Mister Hoser. (1/340) PROSECUTER - The person who is the subject of er, the er, assault and assault by kicking in respect of which you were convicted at the magistrates court is now overseas and that is why there is no evidence being led by the crown today, consequently I've made the order which I have made, now the appeal setting aside the conviction and sentence, now why do you say that that is not correct. HOSER - Now I agree that the conviction should be set aside, I thought we were talking about costs. KIM - Why do you say that it is not correct that the victim, HOSER - No, the alleged victim, KIM - Mister Hoser, why do you say that the person who was the subject of the assault in respect which you were convicted in the lower court is not able to come this time. HOSER - Why, why do I say it. I'll come to that. But you also asked me if I can recall correctly why is this case different to other normal cases and I'll explain that. (1/364) KIM - Mister Hoser would you be good enough to answer my question. HOSER - I will. Well, why, in relation to the lady can I please walk over there and grab the diary and I can find the exact date. HOSER - Thank you, the brown coloured diary, sitting over there, yeh. (1/373) HOSER - You wanted to know about the, the, er, why I think she wasn't overseas, is that correct? KIM - Yes. MUMBLING HOSER - Right, it was on the twenty first of the tenth nineteen, eighty nine, another girl called Laura Jane O'Shannessy, whose name I actually saw on a licence, which made me ask her questions, not on her licence, on a defence department identification, I asked her if she had a sister by the name of Phillipa, and she said yes. I then asked her when she got back, when Phillipa was due to arrive back from overseas, the earlier case was I think August or September last year, and this we're talking on the twenty first of October, this in Inflation nightclub at approximately 2.05 AM, she said that Phillipa O'Shannessy had gone to Greece and Spain and had been back since July and that she hadn't come to court because she didn't want to tell more lies. Now, I then pursued the matter, I, because of the bail conditions, I wasn't allowed to go anywhere near the witness, ah, I did not violate the bail conditions. So I tried to pursue the matter through other avenues, I went through the airlines, and I couldn't get any information from them, the various airline offices throughout the city. I also pursued it through a friend of O'Shannessy's who I picked up in the taxi, by the name of Sally Baker, and I have a transcript of a conversation with her in which we talk about Miss O'Shannessy's habitual fare evasion, how she habitually gets drunk and so on, and I did actually have a subpoena issued for her to appear, but it wasn't issued to her with this quashing business, and she was led to believe also that O'Shannessy had in fact arrived into the country, that was through her brother, David Baker, um, now I have had no further contact with either of them since that period, ah, late September, early October, into November, so, er, now what I, I can't give you any update on the situation from then, furthermore, this girl, Laura Jane O'Shannessy, whose details I wrote down, I was unable to actually verify whether or not she was the sister of alleged victim because I was prohibited by bail conditions from going anywhere near, or having any contact with the alleged victim, which I had no objections to because I had never been near the alleged victim prior anyway, um, so, that was the case in relation to that, but in relation to the case being to another case which is why I am looking for costs is to read out this transcript. This is the conversation between me and the informant, Ross Bingley immediately following the case. Now during the case, there were a number of tape recordings of earlier conversations produced, and, KIM - I'm not going into the merits of the case, HOSER - The case, okay, HOSER - But this is after the case, and if I can read, KIM - Why, why do you reckon this is relevant? HOSER - Because you asked me why this is different to other cases and why you should award me costs, and that's all I'm asking. (1/447) KIM - MUMBLING HOSER - Sorry? KIM - You can proceed. HOSER - Thank you. HOSER - Right, between myself and Bingley. The the, I say, tell me, how much did you pay the judge, Bingley replied heaps, I then question, you paid him heaps, Bingley said, smiling, worth every cent though, sure was mate, I'm very happy, I then asked, So what dealings did you have with Roger Bowman before the case? Bingley said, I can't say Philip, I can't say a thing to you, you've probably got it on tape. I then said, You've done that, bad that time, didn't you, this is in reference to his perjury, Bingley then replied, well who won ay, Philip, who won, I then replied, you might have won this case, but you're gonna lose your job because of this, in relation to the perjury, Bingley then replied, it was inaudible then he says isn't it, I then said gald your pleased, he said very, I then say, you really paid him off, questioning again, and Bingley said oh heaps heaps, I say you did pay him off, Bingley, oh yes, definitely, most definitely, mm, I've got my concerns about the findings of the Fitgerald inquiry, don't you Philip?, I then reply, yes, you'd be the first head to roll, Bingley replied good, go, Bingley then says, Go first, go ar ring my mates up at eye eye dee. I reply at who? Bingley, eye, eye dee, Hoser, whose eye eye dee, Bingley, you don't know? Hoser, I just asked you, whose eye eye dee, Bingley, oh well it's a pity you don't know mate, Hoser you've got done badly didn't you, your up, your probably going to be up for perjury probably now. Bingley, whose doing a month's imprisonment? Then there was inaudible, it appears to be Hoser's and Bingley's voice, Hoser, but did you get done for lying in court, but you did get done for lying in court didn't you, Bingley, Months imprisonment, ah, am I going to prison, am I going to prison, Hoser, you might think it's great putting me in jail, you might think it's really good fun, you do especially, Bingley, because we don't like you, Hoser, why because I do my job, in relation to taxi driving, Bingley, no we just don't like you, Hoser, I'd like to give you a frenzied attack that would leave you with bruising, no bruising, Bingley, yeh, Hoser, I suppose it might query the query the number of coppers who were just conviniently standing by the door watching, Bingley, pardon me, Hoser, about eight more coppers were standing there waching the door, Bingley, Ten, ten, Hoser, why haven't you prosecuted O'Shannessy for fare evasion, Bingley, PROSECUTER - Your honour with some reluctance, I object, it's not relevant. HOSER - If I can just read the final, the final, PROSECUTER - It is my submission, it's not relevant to the application for costs, and at this stage I'd ask the witness to confine himself to those matters. HOSER - Well if I can read the last three or four lines, KIM - Well you read the last three or four lines. HOSER - Then um, I, Hoser, well I think you've certainly done a good job of finishing off my cab driving career, Bingley, oh well, that's that's where I set out to do that. Hoser, well you certainly succeeded, I can't see me driving cabs much longer, Bingley, no mate. That explains the motives of the whole case your honour and as a result of that I seek costs. (1/504) KIM - Any questions you'd like to put. PROSECUTER - Are you able to specify the costs, the amount? HOSER - Yes, yes. HOSER - I can read it out, I can pass you a document while, PROSECUTER - Read it out, HOSER - Right, total costs, twenty two thousand and twenty dollars. PROSECUTER - And, er, how is that made up? HOSER - Right, one thousand five hundred dollars solicitor's costs for the first three days of hearings that's in the lower court, in the lower court, that includes the barrister for all three days and her preparation costs. There are other minor solicitor's costs which I haven't added, I've been conservative throughout here, the costs of typing the transcripts of that case in the lower court um, as there was a large tape recorder placed at the front and we tape recorded the whole case, that cost one thousand five hundred dollars, um, the transcripts are sitting in the bag there so you can see the size of them so you know what I'm talking about. The cost of the tapes used was twenty dollars in that case, it was more but I've written twenty dollars, other direct preparation costs in terms of spent time preparing the case, four thousand dollars, lost income as a result of the last case, and the RTA officer Roger Bowman telling the employer to terminate Hoser's employment as the result of the finding, ten weeks without income, four thousand dollars, I have material here from the employer which says likewise, um, right, ten thousand dollars relating to the cost of theft of equipment and assault by Bingley's friends on the twenty first of the fifth eighty nine at Kew as a result of my complaints to the internal affairs department re that case, and one thousand dollars dollars for the costs of the tape recorders and tapes used witness costs, both units stolen again on twenty first of the fifth eighty nine. No costs here is counted here for the emotional trauma suffered by the real victim of the exercise, namely myself, and as I've written I can document all the expenses neccessary. PROSECUTER - So I take it your not a taxi driver anymore. (1/537) HOSER - That is correct. PROSECUTER - So there's no costs your losing, your not losing any money as a result of being here today. HOSER - Yes I am. I am an author and I can produce you contracts for books that I have to write. Two out of eleven that I have here. (1/539) PROSECUTER - Now at approximately half past ten, you got here late this morning, so, HOSER - As a result of an accident on Bridge Road, that's correct. PROSECUTER - So how much money do you say your losing being here at this stage. HOSER - Well for starters, I issued the subpoeanas, I think there's five subpoeanas I had issued, there was an extraordinary amount of time involved in issuing them, it took me basically virtually a whole day, PROSECUTER - What's the cost? HOSER - The costs of issuing subpoeanas is seventy five cents each, however the cost in relation to running around is er, the time is more valuable than actual stamps, I can assure you, then of course I had to have typed er, I could tell you how many, I think it was about thirty or forty separate transcripts in relation to the case, in relation to police witnesses and so on which I had typed up which I hadn't even itemised the cost yet, but the transcripts are sitting in the bag, which you can have a look at and you costing on your own costings, you can see a huge amount there, and I can produce to you a copy of the book and various material relating to one book and other books as well. KIM - MUMBLING HOSER - Thank you your worship. (1/560) KIM - Is there anything that you wish to say further? HOSER - Yes. I realise that your probably not familar with these sorts of requests, um, or you don't get too many of them, I just ask that er, that you allow the application. KIM - Yes, what do you say to that? PROSECUTER - Well the application of Mister Hoser for the costs involved at the magistrate's court hearing if this man is convicted, there is no basis for him to recover those costs. The costs he can specify for today's hearing involve five subpoeanas worth seventy five cents each and his running around time if your honour is inclined to give him costs in relation to that I won't oppose that, but otherwise I see no basis in my submission for the amount of twenty two thousand nine hundred fifty dollars going fee whatsoever. HOSER - Can I reply your honour. KIM - Yes what do you wish to say. HOSER - Ah, this is one book, where I wrote the definitive work in the field, and obviously I wrote the whole lot. It is approximately er there's fifty or sixty thousand words in this book, which is less than the average, the average book is about eighty thousand words. After the costs, obviously I had costs with producing it, so that after the costs I have twenty one thousand dollars approximately from the print run. I have here contracts for two other books, one on taxi cabs, including some corruption within the industry, and another one on endangered animals of Australia, and there's actually another eleven books which I've been asked to write, which I have contracts, drafts of, at home. Now in relation to the number of words, if I can come over here. KIM - Is it to do with your application. HOSER - Yes it's to do with the costs. Here are some transcripts which I had typed up ready for this case. There's a large number there, if have a quick, do a quick word count you would find there's about eighty thousand words there, which equals one book, and I can assure you that it's harder to have transcripts typed than it is to write a book. Straight out costing you've got twenty thousand there. And, you know that's basically the time involved. Putting it another way, just if you could put yourself in my position, a law abiding citizen doing what he thought has been the right thing throughout the entire case, it is reasonable to expect some sort of compensation for it, a reasonable compensation for it, and in those figures I was conservative, and a friend of mine, Mister Brygel told me to ask for a hundred thousand. So, you know, I know you've probably never been in my position and hopefully you will never be in my position, it's the last thing I would want on anyone, um, but if if you, you know, just if you can in your mind place yourself in my position and you can see the trauma and agony I've been through, and the least I can do is expect some reasonable compensation from the state for the miscarriage of justice or whatever. No malice on anyone, I understand these things happen, but I think it's still reasonable to expect the costs. Thank you. (1/618) KIM - This is an application for costs in respect of an appeal for a conviction of Mister Hoser at the Melbourne Magistrates court, on the twenty first of December nineteen eighty eight. On that date the appellant was convicted of theft and fined three hundred dollars and a hundred and eighty four dollars costs, he was convicted of assault and secondly he was convicted of assault by kicking and sentenced to one months imprisonment. The matter of this hearing was in court today was brought by the crown prosecuter that the crown proposed to be ... Said Phillipa O'Shannessy was overseas. Accordingly I allow the appeal and set aside the convictions and sentences of the lower court. I have no reason not to accept what I was told by the crown prosecuter that Miss Phillipa O'Shannessy is overseas and unable to give evidence at the hearing of the appeal. What I am told by Mister Hoser about a conversation between himself and a police person, I find completely unconvincing in truth. It is not credible evidence. HOSER - Excuse me, your honour, HOSER - They were verified. KIM - ... by costs, of the appellant of costs the application for costs, is not, and cannot be an application for compensation. I can see nothing so far as this particular matter is concerned to award the appellant any order for costs. In my view the usual practice to obtain in this manner, and no order for costs should be made, ... I refuse Mister Hoser. KIM - Yes. (1/673) MUMBLING HOSER PACKING BAGS UP HOSER - Oh, Mister Bingley, how are you? BINGLEY - Go away. WALKING (1/692) HOSER - Have you got the time please? HOSER - Ten to eleven. MALE VOICE - Yeh that's right. END OF TAPE AND TRANSCRIPT (1/712) HOSER IN STREET TAPE TRANSCRIPT OF COURT CASE ON 27TH FEBRUARY 1990 OF APPEAL OF BOGUS ASSAULT ASSAULT AND THEFT CHARGES FACED BY HOSER IN THE MELBOURNE COUNTY COURT IN FRONT OF JUDGE KIM. TRANSCRIPT IS DATED, 27/02/90. TAPE IS MARKED (AM). DURATION OF WHOLE CASE WAS ABOUT 30 MINUTES. INFORMATION RELATING TO THE TRANSCRIPT: RECORDING WAS MADE AT MELBOURNE COUNTY COURT. MATERIAL UNDERLINED is not transcript. '...' means voice is inaudible and either fading in or out on the recording. ' MUMBLING ' means that it was not possible to decipher the word/s on the tape recording. NUMBERS IN BRACKETS ARE POSITIONS ON LARGE TAPE RECORDING. KEY. HOSER = RAYMOND (AKA PHILIP) HOSER KIM = JUDGE KIM BINGLEY = ROSS ALLEN BINGLEY PROSECUTER = POLICE PROSECUTER (BARRISTER) COURT STAFF OFFICER = COURT STAFF OFFICER TRANSCRIPT STARTS NOW #*# (1/176) KIM - Mister Hoser. KIM - You are Philip Hoser. HOSER - That's correct your worship. HOSER - Sorry, do I call you your honour or your worship? PROSECUTER - Your honour KIM - You have instructions for these matters. PROSECUTER - That's correct sir, yes. KIM - Yes (1/188) KIM - The appeal is allowed. KIM - The convictions and sentences of the lower courts are set aside. Thatt's it. HOSER - Ah, your honour, can I just raise a couple of matters in relation to this, please. KIM - Pardon. HOSER - Can I raise a couple of matters in relation to this. KIM - What do you wish to say Mister Hoser. HOSER - I'm after costs. HOSER - And, I want to know, I thought, I could bring that up here and now. Because the case has cost me a huge amount of money. The charges were maliciously laid, and I've got documentation here to back up everything I say. KIM - Your application is for costs for today is it. HOSER - No, costs for the previous case, in relation to the whole thing from the word go, the previous case it went three days in the lower court, it cost me an enormous amount of money to fight, an enormous amount of money in lost income as a result of the case, an enormous amount of money as a result of harassment from the police, just money everywhere, I've itemised it all, I've got a list here, I can give that to you now please. KIM - What you are saying. It would not be usual with a matter before a magistrate's court for an appeal, when costs would ordinarily not be awarded. HOSER - If I can produce to you some documentation here, multiple transcripts of the conversation with the informant immediately following the case, three pages, can I please just, If you read that you'll know exactly what I'm talking about, it's only three pages, or I can read it to the court now, whatever you, KIM - What do you say in response to that (TO PROSECUTER) PROSECUTER - Well the application of Mister Hoser, whatever it is, well in any event it can only be the costs of today, if anything, sir he was properly convicted and quite within the magistrates court, there is no basis for him now to apply for costs in relation to what happened there. The crown didn't lead evidence today sir, because the victim is overseas and is not expected to return to give evidence. HOSER - If I can interrupt there your honour. KIM - Do you accept that as your action Mister Hoser. HOSER - Not entirely, I spoke with a girl who alleged to be the sister of the alleged victim, shortly after the case in question, I bumped into her by accident in a disco of all places and it was by fortutious circumstances that I did come, found out who she was, and she informed me that the alleged victim was overseas, ah, was not overseas, but had in fact returned from her holidays to Greece and Spain prior to her previous case. KIM - You had asked her. KIM - You were proposing to call this person as a witness. HOSER - I was going to. I've issued subpoenas for a number of people, not the sister, but a friend of hers who was going to corroborate the same thing, and um, the situation was that after I was told that they were dropping the charges, I didn't go, I'd came into this place and got the subpoeanas done, after that time I received a letter from the DPP indicating they didn't want to procede so I didn't issue the subpoenas. HOSER - I will quite happy to get into the box now, I have written down in this diary the details of the time and date and all the complete relevant conversation. (1/271) KIM - You can't give evidence of what you were told by somebody else. That would be heresay. HOSER - But I can give evidence as to what I wrote in this diary. KIM - Well just the fact that you wrote it down doesn't make it any more admissable. HOSER - Well getting back to your situation, KIM - Well what was your application for costs. HOSER - All right, in my application for costs, I would still ask that you read this three page document since by not doing so, your not acquainting yourself with the details of the case. KIM - You want to get in the box and give evidence do you? HOSER - On this with this document, yes please. (1/285) KIM - Do you wish to enter the witness box to give evidence in form of the magistrates costs. HOSER - Yes your honour. (HOSER GETS IN BOX) COURT STAFF OFFICER - Silence. What is your full name? HOSER - Philip Jacob Hoser, also known as Raymond Hoser. COURT STAFF OFFICER - Would you raise, have you finished. HOSER - Yes, it's all right. COURT STAFF OFFICER - Would you raise the bible in your right hand and repeat after me. HOSER - Can I do an affirmation instead if possible. COURT STAFF OFFICER - Would ... an affirmation your honour. KIM - MUMBLING COURT STAFF OFFICER - Would you repeat after me. I do solemnly, sincerely and truly, HOSER - I do solemnly, sincerely and truly, COURT STAFF OFFICER - Declare and affirm, HOSER - Declare and affirm, COURT STAFF OFFICER - That the evidence I shall give in this case HOSER - That the evidence I shall give in this case, COURT STAFF OFFICER - Shall be the truth, HOSER - Shall be the truth COURT STAFF OFFICER - The whole truth, HOSER - The whole truth COURT STAFF OFFICER - And nothing but the truth, HOSER - And nothing but the truth, COURT STAFF OFFICER - Thank you. KIM - What is your full name, Mister Hoser. HOSER - Philip Jacob Hoser. KIM - Where do you reside, HOSER - Fourty one, four one, Village Avenue, Doncaster, Victoria. KIM - Which Avenue? HOSER - Village avenue. KIM - Village HOSER - Village. KIM - What's your occupation? HOSER - Author KIM - Your making an application for costs, HOSER - That's correct KIM - And your not only making an application for costs, but you are also seeking costs in relation to the proceedings in the lower court. HOSER - That's correct. KIM - What do you wish to say in relation to the matter. HOSER - Right, if I can just be extremely brief. The case arose from an incident in August or September 1987, when I apprehended a regular fare, taxi fare evader, who evaded paying the fare in my taxi, she jumped and ran, ah, I apprehended her and took her to the St. Kilda police station. She assaulted me, did all the various atrocities that one would expect from that sort of person. The police officer concerned, by the name of Ross Bingley did nothing about the, despite my repeated requests for action to be taken against the fare evader, did nothing about the matter and after about an hour or so of pleading with him to do something I was thrown out of the police station. The fare evader was also known to an RTA inspector by the name of Roger Bowman, KIM - Mister Hoser, I'm told by the crown prosecuter that er, the reason why the crown is leading no evidence today is that the person who is the, HOSER - It would be easier if I could finish, then you could ask me, KIM - Wait a moment Mister Hoser. (1/340) PROSECUTER - The person who is the subject of er, the er, assault and assault by kicking in respect of which you were convicted at the magistrates court is now overseas and that is why there is no evidence being led by the crown today, consequently I've made the order which I have made, now the appeal setting aside the conviction and sentence, now why do you say that that is not correct. HOSER - Now I agree that the conviction should be set aside, I thought we were talking about costs. KIM - Why do you say that it is not correct that the victim, HOSER - No, the alleged victim, KIM - Mister Hoser, why do you say that the person who was the subject of the assault in respect which you were convicted in the lower court is not able to come this time. HOSER - Why, why do I say it. I'll come to that. But you also asked me if I can recall correctly why is this case different to other normal cases and I'll explain that. (1/364) KIM - Mister Hoser would you be good enough to answer my question. HOSER - I will. Well, why, in relation to the lady can I please walk over there and grab the diary and I can find the exact date. HOSER - Thank you, the brown coloured diary, sitting over there, yeh. (1/373) HOSER - You wanted to know about the, the, er, why I think she wasn't overseas, is that correct? KIM - Yes. MUMBLING HOSER - Right, it was on the twenty first of the tenth nineteen, eighty nine, another girl called Laura Jane O'Shannessy, whose name I actually saw on a licence, which made me ask her questions, not on her licence, on a defence department identification, I asked her if she had a sister by the name of Phillipa, and she said yes. I then asked her when she got back, when Phillipa was due to arrive back from overseas, the earlier case was I think August or September last year, and this we're talking on the twenty first of October, this in Inflation nightclub at approximately 2.05 AM, she said that Phillipa O'Shannessy had gone to Greece and Spain and had been back since July and that she hadn't come to court because she didn't want to tell more lies. Now, I then pursued the matter, I, because of the bail conditions, I wasn't allowed to go anywhere near the witness, ah, I did not violate the bail conditions. So I tried to pursue the matter through other avenues, I went through the airlines, and I couldn't get any information from them, the various airline offices throughout the city. I also pursued it through a friend of O'Shannessy's who I picked up in the taxi, by the name of Sally Baker, and I have a transcript of a conversation with her in which we talk about Miss O'Shannessy's habitual fare evasion, how she habitually gets drunk and so on, and I did actually have a subpoena issued for her to appear, but it wasn't issued to her with this quashing business, and she was led to believe also that O'Shannessy had in fact arrived into the country, that was through her brother, David Baker, um, now I have had no further contact with either of them since that period, ah, late September, early October, into November, so, er, now what I, I can't give you any update on the situation from then, furthermore, this girl, Laura Jane O'Shannessy, whose details I wrote down, I was unable to actually verify whether or not she was the sister of alleged victim because I was prohibited by bail conditions from going anywhere near, or having any contact with the alleged victim, which I had no objections to because I had never been near the alleged victim prior anyway, um, so, that was the case in relation to that, but in relation to the case being to another case which is why I am looking for costs is to read out this transcript. This is the conversation between me and the informant, Ross Bingley immediately following the case. Now during the case, there were a number of tape recordings of earlier conversations produced, and, KIM - I'm not going into the merits of the case, HOSER - The case, okay, HOSER - But this is after the case, and if I can read, KIM - Why, why do you reckon this is relevant? HOSER - Because you asked me why this is different to other cases and why you should award me costs, and that's all I'm asking. (1/447) KIM - MUMBLING HOSER - Sorry? KIM - You can proceed. HOSER - Thank you. HOSER - Right, between myself and Bingley. The the, I say, tell me, how much did you pay the judge, Bingley replied heaps, I then question, you paid him heaps, Bingley said, smiling, worth every cent though, sure was mate, I'm very happy, I then asked, So what dealings did you have with Roger Bowman before the case? Bingley said, I can't say Philip, I can't say a thing to you, you've probably got it on tape. I then said, You've done that, bad that time, didn't you, this is in reference to his perjury, Bingley then replied, well who won ay, Philip, who won, I then replied, you might have won this case, but you're gonna lose your job because of this, in relation to the perjury, Bingley then replied, it was inaudible then he says isn't it, I then said gald your pleased, he said very, I then say, you really paid him off, questioning again, and Bingley said oh heaps heaps, I say you did pay him off, Bingley, oh yes, definitely, most definitely, mm, I've got my concerns about the findings of the Fitgerald inquiry, don't you Philip?, I then reply, yes, you'd be the first head to roll, Bingley replied good, go, Bingley then says, Go first, go ar ring my mates up at eye eye dee. I reply at who? Bingley, eye, eye dee, Hoser, whose eye eye dee, Bingley, you don't know? Hoser, I just asked you, whose eye eye dee, Bingley, oh well it's a pity you don't know mate, Hoser you've got done badly didn't you, your up, your probably going to be up for perjury probably now. Bingley, whose doing a month's imprisonment? Then there was inaudible, it appears to be Hoser's and Bingley's voice, Hoser, but did you get done for lying in court, but you did get done for lying in court didn't you, Bingley, Months imprisonment, ah, am I going to prison, am I going to prison, Hoser, you might think it's great putting me in jail, you might think it's really good fun, you do especially, Bingley, because we don't like you, Hoser, why because I do my job, in relation to taxi driving, Bingley, no we just don't like you, Hoser, I'd like to give you a frenzied attack that would leave you with bruising, no bruising, Bingley, yeh, Hoser, I suppose it might query the query the number of coppers who were just conviniently standing by the door watching, Bingley, pardon me, Hoser, about eight more coppers were standing there waching the door, Bingley, Ten, ten, Hoser, why haven't you prosecuted O'Shannessy for fare evasion, Bingley, PROSECUTER - Your honour with some reluctance, I object, it's not relevant. HOSER - If I can just read the final, the final, PROSECUTER - It is my submission, it's not relevant to the application for costs, and at this stage I'd ask the witness to confine himself to those matters. HOSER - Well if I can read the last three or four lines, KIM - Well you read the last three or four lines. HOSER - Then um, I, Hoser, well I think you've certainly done a good job of finishing off my cab driving career, Bingley, oh well, that's that's where I set out to do that. Hoser, well you certainly succeeded, I can't see me driving cabs much longer, Bingley, no mate. That explains the motives of the whole case your honour and as a result of that I seek costs. (1/504) KIM - Any questions you'd like to put. PROSECUTER - Are you able to specify the costs, the amount? HOSER - Yes, yes. HOSER - I can read it out, I can pass you a document while, PROSECUTER - Read it out, HOSER - Right, total costs, twenty two thousand and twenty dollars. PROSECUTER - And, er, how is that made up? HOSER - Right, one thousand five hundred dollars solicitor's costs for the first three days of hearings that's in the lower court, in the lower court, that includes the barrister for all three days and her preparation costs. There are other minor solicitor's costs which I haven't added, I've been conservative throughout here, the costs of typing the transcripts of that case in the lower court um, as there was a large tape recorder placed at the front and we tape recorded the whole case, that cost one thousand five hundred dollars, um, the transcripts are sitting in the bag there so you can see the size of them so you know what I'm talking about. The cost of the tapes used was twenty dollars in that case, it was more but I've written twenty dollars, other direct preparation costs in terms of spent time preparing the case, four thousand dollars, lost income as a result of the last case, and the RTA officer Roger Bowman telling the employer to terminate Hoser's employment as the result of the finding, ten weeks without income, four thousand dollars, I have material here from the employer which says likewise, um, right, ten thousand dollars relating to the cost of theft of equipment and assault by Bingley's friends on the twenty first of the fifth eighty nine at Kew as a result of my complaints to the internal affairs department re that case, and one thousand dollars dollars for the costs of the tape recorders and tapes used witness costs, both units stolen again on twenty first of the fifth eighty nine. No costs here is counted here for the emotional trauma suffered by the real victim of the exercise, namely myself, and as I've written I can document all the expenses neccessary. PROSECUTER - So I take it your not a taxi driver anymore. (1/537) HOSER - That is correct. PROSECUTER - So there's no costs your losing, your not losing any money as a result of being here today. HOSER - Yes I am. I am an author and I can produce you contracts for books that I have to write. Two out of eleven that I have here. (1/539) PROSECUTER - Now at approximately half past ten, you got here late this morning, so, HOSER - As a result of an accident on Bridge Road, that's correct. PROSECUTER - So how much money do you say your losing being here at this stage. HOSER - Well for starters, I issued the subpoeanas, I think there's five subpoeanas I had issued, there was an extraordinary amount of time involved in issuing them, it took me basically virtually a whole day, PROSECUTER - What's the cost? HOSER - The costs of issuing subpoeanas is seventy five cents each, however the cost in relation to running around is er, the time is more valuable than actual stamps, I can assure you, then of course I had to have typed er, I could tell you how many, I think it was about thirty or forty separate transcripts in relation to the case, in relation to police witnesses and so on which I had typed up which I hadn't even itemised the cost yet, but the transcripts are sitting in the bag, which you can have a look at and you costing on your own costings, you can see a huge amount there, and I can produce to you a copy of the book and various material relating to one book and other books as well. KIM - MUMBLING HOSER - Thank you your worship. (1/560) KIM - Is there anything that you wish to say further? HOSER - Yes. I realise that your probably not familar with these sorts of requests, um, or you don't get too many of them, I just ask that er, that you allow the application. KIM - Yes, what do you say to that? PROSECUTER - Well the application of Mister Hoser for the costs involved at the magistrate's court hearing if this man is convicted, there is no basis for him to recover those costs. The costs he can specify for today's hearing involve five subpoeanas worth seventy five cents each and his running around time if your honour is inclined to give him costs in relation to that I won't oppose that, but otherwise I see no basis in my submission for the amount of twenty two thousand nine hundred fifty dollars going fee whatsoever. HOSER - Can I reply your honour. KIM - Yes what do you wish to say. HOSER - Ah, this is one book, where I wrote the definitive work in the field, and obviously I wrote the whole lot. It is approximately er there's fifty or sixty thousand words in this book, which is less than the average, the average book is about eighty thousand words. After the costs, obviously I had costs with producing it, so that after the costs I have twenty one thousand dollars approximately from the print run. I have here contracts for two other books, one on taxi cabs, including some corruption within the industry, and another one on endangered animals of Australia, and there's actually another eleven books which I've been asked to write, which I have contracts, drafts of, at home. Now in relation to the number of words, if I can come over here. KIM - Is it to do with your application. HOSER - Yes it's to do with the costs. Here are some transcripts which I had typed up ready for this case. There's a large number there, if have a quick, do a quick word count you would find there's about eighty thousand words there, which equals one book, and I can assure you that it's harder to have transcripts typed than it is to write a book. Straight out costing you've got twenty thousand there. And, you know that's basically the time involved. Putting it another way, just if you could put yourself in my position, a law abiding citizen doing what he thought has been the right thing throughout the entire case, it is reasonable to expect some sort of compensation for it, a reasonable compensation for it, and in those figures I was conservative, and a friend of mine, Mister Brygel told me to ask for a hundred thousand. So, you know, I know you've probably never been in my position and hopefully you will never be in my position, it's the last thing I would want on anyone, um, but if if you, you know, just if you can in your mind place yourself in my position and you can see the trauma and agony I've been through, and the least I can do is expect some reasonable compensation from the state for the miscarriage of justice or whatever. No malice on anyone, I understand these things happen, but I think it's still reasonable to expect the costs. Thank you. (1/618) KIM - This is an application for costs in respect of an appeal for a conviction of Mister Hoser at the Melbourne Magistrates court, on the twenty first of December nineteen eighty eight. On that date the appellant was convicted of theft and fined three hundred dollars and a hundred and eighty four dollars costs, he was convicted of assault and secondly he was convicted of assault by kicking and sentenced to one months imprisonment. The matter of this hearing was in court today was brought by the crown prosecuter that the crown proposed to be ... Said Phillipa O'Shannessy was overseas. Accordingly I allow the appeal and set aside the convictions and sentences of the lower court. I have no reason not to accept what I was told by the crown prosecuter that Miss Phillipa O'Shannessy is overseas and unable to give evidence at the hearing of the appeal. What I am told by Mister Hoser about a conversation between himself and a police person, I find completely unconvincing in truth. It is not credible evidence. HOSER - Excuse me, your honour, HOSER - They were verified. KIM - ... by costs, of the appellant of costs the application for costs, is not, and cannot be an application for compensation. I can see nothing so far as this particular matter is concerned to award the appellant any order for costs. In my view the usual practice to obtain in this manner, and no order for costs should be made, ... I refuse Mister Hoser. KIM - Yes. (1/673) MUMBLING HOSER PACKING BAGS UP HOSER - Oh, Mister Bingley, how are you? BINGLEY - Go away. WALKING (1/692) HOSER - Have you got the time please? HOSER - Ten to eleven. MALE VOICE - Yeh that's right. END OF TAPE AND TRANSCRIPT (1/712) HOSER IN STREET TAPE TRANSCRIPT OF CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE FOLLOWING TWO PEOPLE, RAYMOND HOSER AND STEVE GORDON, COMMISSIONER FOR ABORIGINALS (NSW WESTERN REGION). TRANSCRIPT IS DATED, 27/3/92 INFORMATION RELATING TO THE TRANSCRIPT: RECORDING WAS MADE IN TAXI WHEN PROCEEDING ON THE SCOND LEG OF A TRIP FROM THORNBURY TO MELBOURNE AIRPORT. THE FIRST LEG OF THE TRIP WAS FROM THE CITY TO THORNBURY AND WASN'T TAPE RECORDED. MATERIAL UNDERLINED is not transcript. '...' means voice is inaudible and either fading in or out on the recording. ' MUMBLING ' means that it was not possible to decipher the word/s on the tape recording. NUMBERS IN BRACKETS ARE POSITIONS ON LARGE TAPE RECORDING. KEY. HOSER = RAYMOND HOSER GORDON = STEVE GORDON TRANSCRIPT STARTS NOW BORN IN BREWARRINA, (1/035) ADMITS TO UNDERWORLD PAST #*# (1/047) GORDON - Involved with everything, mate everything, everything. #*# (1/085) GORDON - I knew he was an ex-crim, you only had to look at him. HOSER - You can tell if they're a crim just by looking at them? GORDON - Oh yeh, fucking oath. HOSER - How, GORDON - MUMBLING #*# (1/107) HOSER - So what were you bringing in didgeridoos? GORDON - Gold. HOSER - Gold? GORDON - Mmm. HOSER - So this was smuggled gold. GORDON - Yeh, lots of it. HOSER - But can't you just buy gold anyway? GORDON - No, we had a lot to ship in. You see. HOSER - But why don't you just sell it normally? GORDON - It was stolen you see. HOSER - Sorry. GORDON - Knocked off, millions and millions of dollars worth. #*# (1/125) HOSER - And you'd stick it in didgeridoos? GORDON - Mmm. HOSER - LAUGHTER HOSER - And what about. Did you smuggle wildlife too? Birds and stuff. GORDON - Oh yeh GORDON DETAILS HOW HE ACTED AS A MIDDLE MAN IN THE BIRD SMUGGLING RACKET PICKING UP BIRDS FROM SOME PEOPLE AND TAKING THEM TO OTHERS AND COLLECTING MONEY. GORDON - Well I used to pick them up off different people and drop them with certain blokes and blokes would pick them up and I'd pick the money up. HOSER - Ah so you were like the middle man in the chain. GORDON - Yeh, that's it. Only a small way that way. HOSER - How long ago was that? GORDON - Oh, six or nine years ago. #*# (1/153) HOSER - So what did Farquhar, Farquhar had something to do with Jack Giles. GORDON - Yeh, oh, he was a bad man, that Murray Farquhar. HOSER - Such as what did he do? GORDON - Oh he was a magistrate and he was involved with the head figures in the underworld movement. HOSER - How did he get to be a magistrate if he was a head figure of the underworld or vice versa. GORDON - I don't know mate. I couldn't tell you that. He just was. Mmm a terrible man. Ah all those crooks, big Russ Hinze, and Joe Bjelkie Peterson and theyre all crooks mate, ... MUMBLING HOSER - Their's a lot of crooks in government. (1/170) HOSER - So you was trapping the birds and shipping them out. GORDON - Mmm. No I was just trapping them and blokes were buying them see. HOSER - Was he to do with the wildlife department, were people from the wildlife department buying the birds. GORDON - Yes. HOSER - They were. GORDON - Mmm. National Parks and Wildlife were increadible, um, they were very corrupt them National Parks. Big name big money. One of the detectives he was involved National Parks, he was a wildlife detective, he made some money, he died of Cancer in the end. HOSER - Clive Jones. GORDON - No. HOSER - Did you know Clive Jones. GORDON - No I don't. HOSER - MUMBLING How many years ago was that in time. GORDON - Oh mate, might have been ten years, eight years. HOSER - Who was it, what was his name? GORDON - Oh, well I wouldn't tell you. HOSER - I probably know this bloke. I dealt with them. HOSER - Clive Jones, Terry Hill? GORDON - Know a bloke called Jack Giles or something, Jack Giles yes. GORDON - Did you used to work in National Parks or something? HOSER - Yeh, well I've worked with them, I've worked with them. Oh Jack Giles, um I could tell you more about Jack Giles than you've ever knew. GORDON - He was only a small fly though Jack. HOSER - How do you mean. GORDON - Like in the MUMBLING GORDON - ... Jack Giles, he was running the Kangaroo industry. HOSER - How do you mean, what was he doing there. GORDON - Oh he was buying them all. People couldn't get into their licences, and who knows what and offering him twenty grand to National Parks, MUMBLING HOSER - MUMBLING GORDON - No, to keep people out of the industry. Well Knagaroos are worth a lot of money, Kangaroo meat and skins. HOSER - Yeh. So that was his main racket. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - What about the bird stuff, was Giles in that? GORDON - No that was another bloke. HOSER - Don Johnstone? (1/221) GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - You knew Johnstone? GORDON - I knew Johnstone well. HOSER - MUMBLING GORDON - MUMBLING HOSER - So he was worse than Giles? GORDON - Oh shit yeh. GORDON - I just can't think of the guy's name before him, before Johnstone. HOSER - What the director. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - He was worse than Johnstone. GORDON - Oh yeh. HOSER - The guy before Johnstone was worse. GORDON - Yeh, yeh. GORDON - MUMBLING a couple of murders. HOSER - Sorry. GORDON - ... a couple of murders, GORDON - ... the National Parks people, at the time. HOSER - The National Parks have murdered a couple of people. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - Tell me why? (1/239) GORDON - A couple of people were murdered yeh. HOSER - What, why? GORDON - They put him in the mincer them, one bloke I've seen him. HOSER - They put one bloke through a mincer? GORDON - Mmm HOSER - Shit, the National Parks and Wildlife Guys, GORDON - Mmm HOSER - Put the guys through the pet food mincer. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - What was that for? GORDON - Oh he knew too much about them I s'pose. HOSER - Oh, so they just ended up with this man's body and sold it as pet food. GORDON - Mmm. HOSER - Now whose time was that in? Was that in Giles' and Johnstone's time or before that. GORDON - Just before. HOSER - Before that. GORDON - MUMBLING HOSER - MUMBLING (270) GORDON - MUMBLING ... certain people and um killed em see, another two blokes got drownded, they were run into a Dam, two old blokes, old Judd brothers. HOSER - Their name was Judd. GORDON - Judd brothers in Bourke. GORDON - They found their bodies in the dam about five or six years after that, they'd drive home every afternoon from the North Bourke pub on, and um, they come into the same stuff I did. HOSER - What the wildlife people were doing things they shouldn't be doing. GORDON - Yeh, and they get these blokes and they knocked them off and they put em in the dam see. And they put all the grog in the car, but they didn't drink see. ... beer whisky and stuff. HOSER - The blokes didn't drink. GORDON - Not a lot of beer, now and again you know, not as if you drunk a lot, two middies or something like that, yeh. HOSER - So what they did they loaded the car up with grog to cover it. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - Oh right. GORDON - And then they they had a big white ah what do you call it car, not fairlane, big LTD, HOSER - And the wildlife blokes did that. GORDON - Yeh. And they finished them, put them in the dam, drowned them and they were there for years after that and I knew they were in there and another bloke they knocked off at Saint George and I was the next bloke, and I bowed out. HOSER - Really, shit. Who was the bloke they knocked off. GORDON - That was the bloke they put in the mincer. HOSER - You were saying they put him in the mincer. GORDON - Mmm, mmm. HOSER - Shit. GORDON - Oh yeh mate. HOSER - And even the bird blokes too. GORDON - Yeh, and the woman's never, the police never got none of this yet you know. HOSER - They never got on to any of it? GORDON - Oh no, no, no, GORDON - I was gone. If I'd have said any more I'd have been gone. HOSER - MUMBLING GORDON - ... three people, the two Judd brothers and a mate of mine. HOSER - Jadd, Jay Ay Dee Dee, GORDON - Judd brothers. But no one ever pinned their deaths to them before. Oh they said they got drunk and they drove their car into a dam. Why would you drive your car into a Dam. And they'd drive home for years and years, and they'd drive home to their house. HOSER - Apart of course for the fact that they didn't drink. GORDON - Didn't drink...years after. HOSER - And then what about um, so the parks and wildlife blokes bumped them off. GORDON - Mmm. HOSER - And was this Johnstone and Giles and their mates or someone else? GORDON - No, see I wouldn't tell you, you know too much about National Parks, see. HOSER - MUMBLING GORDON - MUMBLING HOSER - So they got bumped off and you were next in line. GORDON - Yes. HOSER - So they said you shut up and we'll leave you alone. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - So you shut up and they left you alone. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - Fair enough. GORDON - Well I come to Saint George and see where they put a mate of mine through the mincer and my feet went up. HOSER - That's Saint George in Queensland. GORDON - Mmm. HOSER - Oh right, so they put him through the mincer in Saint George. HOSER - They showed you them doing it? GORDON - Well I've seen some things that were things of, parts of human. HOSER - So you knew it was him. GORDON - Oh yeh. His boots on the floor, everything see. They were mixing it up with other meat see. GORDON - I got real sick you know, I stopped dead in my tracks and I just walked off, ... HOSER - What was the actual scandal, like with, which particular one was it that they were worried about at the time. GORDON - What do you mean. HOSER - Like you've told me all bits of things like gold and birds and kangaroo meat, but obviously you weren't doing everything at once, right. GORDON - No. HOSER - Which particular one was it. At the time was it Kangaroos was it birds or what? GORDON - Oh, I don't know which.... HOSER - Was he to do with the wildlife department, were people from the wildlife department buying the birds. GORDON - Yes. HOSER - They were. GORDON - Mmm. National Parks and Wildlife were increadible, um, they were very corrupt them National Parks. Big name big money. One of the detectives he was involved National Parks, he was a wildlife detective, he made some money, he died of Cancer in the end. HOSER - Clive Jones. GORDON - No. HOSER - Did you know Clive Jones. GORDON - No I don't. HOSER - MUMBLING How many years ago was that in time. GORDON - Oh mate, might have been ten years, eight years. HOSER - Who was it, what was his name? GORDON - Oh, well I wouldn't tell you. HOSER - I probably know this bloke. I dealt with them. HOSER - Clive Jones, Terry Hill? GORDON - Know a bloke called Jack Giles or something, Jack Giles yes. GORDON - Did you used to work in National Parks or something? HOSER - Yeh, well I've worked with them, I've worked with them. Oh Jack Giles, um I could tell you more about Jack Giles than you've ever knew. GORDON - He was only a small fly though Jack. HOSER - How do you mean. GORDON - Like in the MUMBLING GORDON - ... Jack Giles, he was running the Kangaroo industry. HOSER - How do you mean, what was he doing there. GORDON - Oh he was buying them all. People couldn't get into their licences, and who knows what and offering him twenty grand to National Parks, MUMBLING HOSER - MUMBLING GORDON - No, to keep people out of the industry. Well Knagaroos are worth a lot of money, Kangaroo meat and skins. HOSER - Yeh. So that was his main racket. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - What about the bird stuff, was Giles in that? GORDON - No that was another bloke. HOSER - Don Johnstone? (1/221) GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - You knew Johnstone? GORDON - I knew Johnstone well. HOSER - MUMBLING GORDON - MUMBLING HOSER - So he was worse than Giles? GORDON - Oh shit yeh. GORDON - I just can't think of the guy's name before him, before Johnstone. HOSER - What the director. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - He was worse than Johnstone. GORDON - Oh yeh. HOSER - The guy before Johnstone was worse. GORDON - Yeh, yeh. GORDON - MUMBLING a couple of murders. HOSER - Sorry. GORDON - ... a couple of murders, GORDON - ... the National Parks people, at the time. HOSER - The National Parks have murdered a couple of people. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - Tell me why? (1/239) GORDON - A couple of people were murdered yeh. HOSER - What, why? GORDON - They put him in the mincer them, one bloke I've seen him. HOSER - They put one bloke through a mincer? GORDON - Mmm HOSER - Shit, the National Parks and Wildlife Guys, GORDON - Mmm HOSER - Put the guys through the pet food mincer. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - What was that for? GORDON - Oh he knew too much about them I s'pose. HOSER - Oh, so they just ended up with this man's body and sold it as pet food. GORDON - Mmm. HOSER - Now whose time was that in? Was that in Giles' and Johnstone's time or before that. GORDON - Just before. HOSER - Before that. GORDON - MUMBLING HOSER - MUMBLING (270) GORDON - MUMBLING ... certain people and um killed em see, another two blokes got drownded, they were run into a Dam, two old blokes, old Judd brothers. HOSER - Their name was Judd. GORDON - Judd brothers in Bourke. GORDON - They found their bodies in the dam about five or six years after that, they'd drive home every afternoon from the North Bourke pub on, and um, they come into the same stuff I did. HOSER - What the wildlife people were doing things they shouldn't be doing. GORDON - Yeh, and they get these blokes and they knocked them off and they put em in the dam see. And they put all the grog in the car, but they didn't drink see. ... beer whisky and stuff. HOSER - The blokes didn't drink. GORDON - Not a lot of beer, now and again you know, not as if you drunk a lot, two middies or something like that, yeh. HOSER - So what they did they loaded the car up with grog to cover it. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - Oh right. GORDON - And then they they had a big white ah what do you call it car, not fairlane, big LTD, HOSER - And the wildlife blokes did that. GORDON - Yeh. And they finished them, put them in the dam, drowned them and they were there for years after that and I knew they were in there and another bloke they knocked off at Saint George and I was the next bloke, and I bowed out. HOSER - Really, shit. Who was the bloke they knocked off. GORDON - That was the bloke they put in the mincer. HOSER - You were saying they put him in the mincer. GORDON - Mmm, mmm. HOSER - Shit. GORDON - Oh yeh mate. HOSER - And even the bird blokes too. GORDON - Yeh, and the woman's never, the police never got none of this yet you know. HOSER - They never got on to any of it? GORDON - Oh no, no, no, GORDON - I was gone. If I'd have said any more I'd have been gone. HOSER - MUMBLING GORDON - ... three people, the two Judd brothers and a mate of mine. HOSER - Jadd, Jay Ay Dee Dee, GORDON - Judd brothers. But no one ever pinned their deaths to them before. Oh they said they got drunk and they drove their car into a dam. Why would you drive your car into a Dam. And they'd drive home for years and years, and they'd drive home to their house. HOSER - Apart of course for the fact that they didn't drink. GORDON - Didn't drink...years after. HOSER - And then what about um, so the parks and wildlife blokes bumped them off. GORDON - Mmm. HOSER - And was this Johnstone and Giles and their mates or someone else? GORDON - No, see I wouldn't tell you, you know too much about National Parks, see. HOSER - MUMBLING GORDON - MUMBLING HOSER - So they got bumped off and you were next in line. GORDON - Yes. HOSER - So they said you shut up and we'll leave you alone. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - So you shut up and they left you alone. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - Fair enough. GORDON - Well I come to Saint George and see where they put a mate of mine through the mincer and my feet went up. HOSER - That's Saint George in Queensland. GORDON - Mmm. HOSER - Oh right, so they put him through the mincer in Saint George. HOSER - They showed you them doing it? GORDON - Well I've seen some things that were things of, parts of human. HOSER - So you knew it was him. GORDON - Oh yeh. His boots on the floor, everything see. They were mixing it up with other meat see. GORDON - I got real sick you know, I stopped dead in my tracks and I just walked off, ... HOSER - What was the actual scandal, like with, which particular one was it that they were worried about at the time. GORDON - What do you mean. HOSER - Like you've told me all bits of things like gold and birds and kangaroo meat, but obviously you weren't doing everything at once, right. GORDON - No. HOSER - Which particular one was it. At the time was it Kangaroos was it birds or what? GORDON - Oh, I don't know which.... (1/340) HOSER - they were interested in both lots, so it was Kangaroos and birds they were worried about. GORDON - It was mainly Kangaroos though mate. HOSER - Mainly Kangaroo stuff. GORDON - Mmm, mm. HOSER - So maybe handing out the licences and stuff, that's where the problems were. GORDON - Yeh, yeh, to keep other people out of the industry and controll it you see. HOSER - To keep others out of the industry and control it within those. GORDON - National Parks, yeh. HOSER - Oh, GORDON - Big quotas and all that stuff, you know, things like that, and they would just get twenty or thirty thousand dollars for the directors, and, HOSER - So the standard practice was that the only way you could get into the industry was to give money to the director. GORDON - Oh you couldn't get in brother, you couldn't make that much money, you couldn't get in. They wouldn't let you in. And they had standover tactics, ... HOSER - So you had to give the director money to get your licences. GORDON - Yeh. To get into old fellas and big stuff, not the shit you know. HOSER - So you had to give money to the director to get in. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - Are we going back to something like 1980. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - So the guy before Johnstone was worse than Johnstone. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - And Johnstone was still bad. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - Do you know his successor Whitehouse? GORDON - Johnstone' successor? HOSER - Yeh, Whitehouse. GORDON - Oh I think I might have got out of it by then mate, I think so, I know the name though... #*# (1/372) HOSER - Terry Hill? GORDON - Terry, yeh, yeh. HOSER - You know Terry Hill? GORDON - Yeh, HOSER - So what was he up to. GORDON - Oh, I couldn't tell you much about Terry but I knew him, though like he was a very cunning man he was. HOSER - Did he get involved in all these rackets as well. GORDON - Mmm. See I had a mate who was really involved in a lot of stuff and I used to see him in motel rooms and I used to alk to him a lot on the phone and making deals, HOSER - A wildlife bloke. GORDON - No he was a real heavy in the underworld. And he used to give me a few shit jobs and stuff, ... I used to get around with him a bit. #*# (1/389) HOSER - But Giles was small fry compared with Johnstone. GORDON - Oh yeh, yeh. HOSER - But Giles was into it. GORDON - Yeh, yeh. GORDON - He was Johnstone's junior ... HOSER - So him and Johnstone would work togeather. GORDON - Yeh. HOSER - So their main role was like collecting the bribes to um, um, issue the licences to the right people. GORDON - Yeh, to keep people out, cover up and, if officers went to a bloke and found things they shouldn't have found, like birds or fucking Kangaroos red Kangaroos, over licences, they'd bypass it. HOSER - Ah, GORDON - Things like that. #*# (1/424) GORDON - I get a hundred and seven thousand a year plus expenses. HOSER - Really? Can you get me a job there. #*# (1/452) GORDON - Never had no criminal charges. #*# (1/476) GORDON ALLEGES THAT ABE SAFFRON THREATENED TO KILL HIM IF HE WENT TO THE MEDIA AS PLANNED THE NEXT DAY. GORDON WAS STAYING AT THE RUSHCUTTER'S BAY TRAVELLODGE. GORDON ALSO STATED THAT HE DELIBERATELY LOST A CASE AGAINST NPWS/NSW AFTER ABE SAFFRON MET HIM OUTSIDE THE COURT AND TOLD HIM TO LOSE THE CASE. GORDON STATED THAT ABE SAFFRON WAS ON THE SAME SIDE AS NPWS. THE CASE WAS HELD AT A SYDNEY CITY MAGISTRATE'S COURT. GORDON SAID 'I WAS SHITTING MYSELF' TAPE TRANSCRIPT OF CONVERSATION PRINCIPALLY BETWEEN THE FOLLOWING PEOPLE, ALAN BRYGEL, RAYMOND (AKA PHILIP) HOSER, GEORGE OLSEN AND DERRY ASHTON. TRANSCRIPT IS DATED, 1/11/90 INFORMATION RELATING TO THE TRANSCRIPT: RECORDING WAS MADE AT RUSSELL STREET MAGISTRATE'S COURT, MELBOURNE, VICTORIA, AUSTRALIA. MATERIAL UNDERLINED is not transcript. '...' means voice is inaudible and either fading in or out on the recording. ' MUMBLING ' means that it was not possible to decipher the word/s on the tape recording. NUMBERS IN BRACKETS ARE POSITIONS ON LARGE TAPE RECORDING. TAPE DURATION IS ABOUT 60 MINUTES AND TAKEN FROM TWO SIDES OF A MICRO TAPE. BELOW IS EXCERPTS OF KEY PARTS OF TAPE INCLUDING ALL CONVERSATION WITH GEORGE OLSEN AND DERRY ASHTON. KEY. BRYGEL = ALAN ANTHONY BRYGEL HOSER = RAYMOND (AKA PHILIP) HOSER OLSEN = GEORGE OLSEN ASHTON = DERRY ASHTON TRANSCRIPT STARTS NOW (1/011) HOSER AND BRYGEL GO INTO COURT BUILDING (1/113) OLSEN - Mister Hoser, how are you this morning. HOSER - Fine, how are you. OLSEN - Not to bad. That's for you. OLSEN HANDS HOSER AN ENVELOPE CONTAINING A LETTER FROM ASHTON. HOSER - Another one. OLSEN - Yep OLSEN - Have a good day. (1/122) HOSER - Excuse me, this letter. ASHTON - I'll kill you. HOSER - Hey, that's assault. HOSER - Do you want another assault charge do you. (1/128) HOSER - Dee Why Dee Tripple Oh. ASHTON DRIVES OFF BRYGEL - See something then. OLSEN RUNS OFF TO HIS CAR PARKED IN LATROBE STREET NO MORE CONVERSATION WITH OLSEN OR ASHTON EXCERPTS OF THIS TAPE END TRANSCRIPT IS DATED, 1/11/90 (AM) OLSEN - Mister Hoser, how are you this morning. HOSER - Fine, how are you. OLSEN - Not to bad. That's for you. HOSER - Another one. OLSEN - Yep OLSEN - Have a good day. HOSER - Excuse me, this letter. ASHTON - I'll kill you. HOSER - Hey, that's assault. HOSER - Do you want another assault charge do you. HOSER - Dee Why Dee Tripple Oh. BRYGEL - See something then. NO FURTHER CONVERSATION BETWEEN OLSEN, ASHTON AND HOSER/BRYGEL. TAPE TRANSCRIPT OF CONVERSATION ON 3RD JANUARY 1992 BETWEEN RAYMOND HOSER, AND PAUL ORANGE A REPTILE KEEPER OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA. TRANSCRIPT IS DATED, 03/01/92. TAPE IS MARKED (PM). INFORMATION RELATING TO THE TRANSCRIPT: RECORDING WAS MADE FROM A PHONE CALL AT RAYMOND HOSER'S HOUSE AT 41 VILLAGE AVENUE, DONCASTER, (MELBOURNE), VICTORIA, 3108. MATERIAL UNDERLINED is not transcript. '...' means voice is inaudible and either fading in or out on the recording. ' MUMBLING ' means that it was not possible to decipher the word/s on the tape recording. NUMBERS IN BRACKETS ARE POSITIONS ON LARGE TAPE RECORDING. EXCERPTS ONLY SERPARATED BY '#*#' KEY. HOSER = RAYMOND HOSER ORANGE = PAUL ORANGE TRANSCRIPT STARTS NOW #*# (2/139) PHONE ANSWERED ORANGE - MUMBLING HOSER - Yes, I'm after Paul Orange please. ORANGE - Yeh, speaking. HOSER - Paul, my name's Raymond Hoser, I'm ringing from miserable Melbourne, ORANGE - Ah, right, HOSER - And, you probably know of me, do you, ORANGE - Yeh, I do, yeh, HOSER - Right, oh, you do now, HOSER - I've er, read all stuff in Herpetofauna, and I've got a few other clippings from Brian Barnett and others, ah, basically I'd like to know a bit more about the case if possible. ORANGE - Yeh, HOSER - Now, they didn't actually catch you red-handed feeding the geckoes to the snakes, they went through your notes, is that right? ORANGE - Yeh, that's right. Yeh, HOSER - Now did they actually seize your notes or did they just come over and flick through them. ORANGE - Oh, they actually took them with them, and photocopied them, HOSER - Right, they took the notes and photocopied them, ORANGE - Yeh, the idea was they told me this was all to um to prove to the ones in Perth that er, I was, er, I really knew what I was doing and kept proper notes and things like that. HOSER - Oh right, so the guys that came over used the excuse that they were taking your notes to show the guys in Perth that were a good bona fide herp'. ORANGE - Oh yeh, that's what they told me it was for. HOSER - And then they turned around and er, ORANGE - And used them, to prosecute with. Yeh. HOSER - Gees, so in other words they lied to you. ORANGE - Sorry. HOSER - In other words they lied to you. ORANGE - Oh yeh, yeh, HOSER - Jesus, HOSER - Now which court, was it in a Perth Court, your not in Perth obviously. You're somewhere else. ORANGE - No I'm in the sticks. Not far from Kalgoorlie, in Eastern goldfields, HOSER - Oh right, that's why you had, there was a clipping in the Kalgoorlie miner or whatever. ORANGE - Yeh. (2/168) #*# (2/266) HOSER - And was the magistrate basically on your side from the word go, did he basically decide to chuck it out fairly quick or did he he go, ORANGE - It took four hours. HOSER - Gee, so it was a fairly long trial. ORANGE - But em, when it all came out and that, and um, I mean even I'm in court, MUMBLING , virtually I'd been set up, not directly but it was, it was a set-up from the start. HOSER - A set up, how do you mean? ORANGE - Well as I said it was a note and that, they said it was to help me and all along he was compiling a file to prosecute me. HOSER - Oh right, so they were really trying to entrap you. ORANGE - Yeh, well that's one of the points I got off on, was that it was entrapment, it was an amnesty too. HOSER - Oh that's right, because you got a licence under an amnesty and then they decided to get you after that, is that right. ORANGE - Yeh, #*# TAPE TRANSCRIPT OF CONVERSATION ON 3RD JANUARY 1992 BETWEEN RAYMOND HOSER, AND ANDREW NORBURY A REPTILE KEEPER OF NEW SOUTH WALES. TRANSCRIPT IS DATED, 03/01/92. TAPE IS MARKED (PM). INFORMATION RELATING TO THE TRANSCRIPT: RECORDING WAS MADE FROM A PHONE CALL AT RAYMOND HOSER'S HOUSE AT 41 VILLAGE AVENUE, DONCASTER, (MELBOURNE), VICTORIA, 3108. MATERIAL UNDERLINED is not transcript. '...' means voice is inaudible and either fading in or out on the recording. ' MUMBLING ' means that it was not possible to decipher the word/s on the tape recording. NUMBERS IN BRACKETS ARE POSITIONS ON LARGE TAPE RECORDING. EXCERPTS ONLY SERPARATED BY '#*#' KEY. HOSER = RAYMOND HOSER NORBURY = ANDREW NORBURY TRANSCRIPT STARTS NOW #*# (2/536) NORBURY - That's it mate, we're doing the right thing, and these pricks from there who wouldn't know their arse from their fucking elbows, HOSER - That's right, NORBURY - They're walking around taking reptiles, they're taking reptiles from the good keepers, mate. HOSER - I know that. NORBURY - All the people who look after stuff. You ask Charles about the set up I had here, mate. I had a wicked set up, I had all, you know kitchen melemaie, I had all big tanks made out of melamaie with solid timber doors and all that on it, really, looked furniture you know, not like snake cages, HOSER - Like furniture LAUGHING NORBURY - All thermostatically controlled, heating everything, HOSER - Yeh, now look, I don't deny any of that, look I know what they're like. NORBURY - They come here and just pick this, and this and this, took what they fucking wanted HOSER - They took what they wanted, yeh. NORBURY - They took Diamonds and stuff like that. HOSER - They took, the, the, the, more valuable stuff in other words, NORBURY - They took Diamonds and stuff like that. NORBURY - And um, HOSER - But they were licenced weren't they? NORBURY - Yeh, I had all on permit. HOSER - So why did they take them. NORBURY - Because I had these snakes that I shouldn't have fucking had. HOSER - So they said because you had unpermit snakes we're taking the lot. NORBURY - Yeh, that was their attitude. HOSER - And who, was it Gary Sims, he was the bloke that came over. NORBURY - Yeh. HOSER - Was there anyone else. NORBURY - No just him, HOSER - By himself, NORBURY - Yeh, he was a law enforcement officer. HOSER - Because if you had snakes on permit they've got no right to take them. NORBURY - He got the permits off me and said well we'll cancell your permits, you can't have them anymore, HOSER - There and then. NORBURY - Yeh, HOSER - So he walked in and said 'right you have a um, what was it, you had a, NORBURY - Tropidechis carinatus, HOSER - You had a rough scale and, and was it Eastern Brown or was it Small-eyed, NORBURY - No, Cryptophis nigrescens, HOSER - Right, so you had a rough-scaled and a thing over and above your permit, therefore we cancell your permit immediately, NORBURY - Yeh, he took it off me straight away, HOSER - He took the permit off of you, NORBURY - Yep, HOSER - And then he took your Diamonds and stuff as well. NORBURY - Yep, HOSER - Did he take every reptile you had there. NORBURY - No, he left me with some, HOSER - What? NORBURY - Carpets, HOSER - Why? NORBURY - Don't know, snakes aren't worth taking, HOSER - How many carpets? NORBURY - Two. Big ones. HOSER - Anything else. NORBURY - No that was it. HOSER - Well I don't think you need a permit for carpets in New South Wales at all, so he probably had a justification, at, NORBURY - For years and years and years, this is what shits me Raymond. HOSER - Yeh, hold it, let me tell you something. They have no right to cancell your permit on the spot, they have to go through a set procedure in writing, they can't just, it's like, if your driving along a road and a copper asks you for your driving licence he can't like take your licence off you and then charge you with driving illegally. NORBURY - Yeh (2/567) HOSER - That's what they've done. NORBURY - Yeh, HOSER - They can't do that. NORBURY - And afterwards, I contacted Gary Sims at er, head office and I said, look Gary, I get heaps of phone calls, what's the go, am I still licenced to go collect them and pick them up or re-release them or what? And he said, I'll get back to you, and he never got back to me, so the Phone's been ringing hot here during this summer HOSER - Right, NORBURY - And I've just been saying fucking ring National Parks and Wildlife and get them to pick them up. HOSER - And of course they don't NORBURY - Nope HOSER - Jesus Christ, so it's not a terribly good scenario is it. NORBURY - No, well, see they rub a lot of people the wrong way. HOSER - Oh we know that, we know that. NORBURY - Quite good keepers. Do you know Jeff Banks. HOSER - In where, yeh, out at er, NORBURY - Mount Druitt, he lives here, he did the shows at the lion park, HOSER - Yeh (2/577) NORBURY - He had good reptiles you know, HOSER - Right, and what happened to him? NORBURY - Well he's no longer in it. He told them to bash it up their arse, he's out. And there's a bloke whose been in the game for bloody thirty odd years. HOSER - Yeh, he's been with reptiles for a while, um so what happened, Jeff Banks, they just, they hassled him? NORBURY - yeh, they were given him a hard time. See, like they had boas and that out there at the lion park, HOSER - Right, NORBURY - But that was under licence of Ian Bullen who owns Bullen's animal world, well he's got a like a zoo licence from memory, HOSER - Sure, I don't want to say too many bad things about Jeff Banks, because he's obviously a mate of yours, but what I can tell you is back in nineteen eighty one, he did a deal with parks and wildlife to chuck me out of the society with the view that he would benefit out of it, and it served, in a way, I said, NORBURY - You should never have got out of it mate, you've did a lot of good for this fucking, HOSER - Well we know that, but Jeff Banks had thought well, if we shoot, he ran on the principle well we'll sacrifice him, and we'll be better off for it, but unfortunately with reptile keepers we've all got to stand togeather. NORBURY - Yeh, well you didn't take any shit from. Well what I can gather from a lot of people, I've never met you. Like what Ken Sheppherd and Charles has told me and that, you just don't take shit off anyone. HOSER - Well I do take shit, but I only take so much. NORBURY - Yeh, well that's what I'm saying. You stand up for yourself. All the other blokes are sucking and licking National Parks arses that bad, right, so they can get what they want, and they're knifing one keeper in the back to get credibility so that they can fucking keep,what they want. HOSER - That's right, what the wildlife do, is that they let the keepers stab each other in the back, and um, so long as the reptile people are divided they'll never ever be a match for the, NORBURY - We should all pool our resources and say, look let's fight these blokes, HOSER - Yeh, yeh, bury the differences and um, um, and I don't like the word fight, but essentially your right, they should all bury their differences and say okay look we disagree on minor points, #*# (2/699) NORBURY - See, the thing I can't understand is the National Parks and Wildlife prosecuted me, right, HOSER - Right, NORBURY - They took me to court, and they didn't even have the, a representative in the courtroom, the police prosecuter is the one who laid the charges on me, he fucking laughed. My solicitor went over and talked to him and he laughed, he said it's a waste of time this even being here. HOSER - That was the police prosecuter said that. NORBURY - That's what he said, to my solicitor, HOSER - Yeh, well that doesn't suprise, see look, NORBURY - Why am I doing this? I mean look he was more interested in traffic offences and stuff like that, not, fucking snakes, HOSER - Snakes, NORBURY - But even the Judge said it, it will be on the thing, he said um Andrew Norbury, like the police prosecuter read out what I'd been charged for, when you stand, when you approach the bench and he said um, he's here, like on charges for obtaining protected fauna, and the judge said what's that, and the bloke said snakes, and the even said in the chair, bloody snakes! HOSER - Yeh, NORBURY - He said, bloody snakes, HOSER - Yeh, should record on it. NORBURY - Yeh, That'll be on there, because that was when I approached the bench, HOSER - Yeh, NORBURY - You'll hear for yourself, you know, HOSER - Yeh, that's the sort of thing I want. Um, see the thing is, NORBURY - He said bloody in the court room, he said bloody snakes. HOSER - Yeh, NORBURY - And laughed. HOSER - See, that's also, it will also be on there, the name of this magistrate you know. Which court was it? It was Penrith court wasn't it, yeh. But, um, because when I spoke to you last time, I wrote down a few bits and pieces and I've just got that in front of me now, so you know, what ever you told me last time, I've got in front of me, um, so um, NORBURY - You know Richard Moy, the solicitor said, he sort of said, well he's been in it for this amount of years, he's done, um, calls on behalf of national parks and wildlife and the police department, he's removed reptiles from houses where they've endangered people's lives, um, he's kept them, he's bred them, I've bred them in captivity, and um, the magistrate just said, fourty dollars court costs, that's it, see you later. HOSER - Yeh, it's bloody stupid, it really is. NORBURY - I mean, and I had to get a solicitor and all that, which um, mum and dad made me do, HOSER - And it cost you a packet no doubt. NORBURY - Yeh, see mum and dad, they were pissed off, because I kept these things in such good condition, you know I fed them regularly, I always had feed here for 'em, nothing ever, if anything sort of got sick, I pannickd you know, I would ring around everywhere, HOSER - That's right, yeh, NORBURY - And get it back on it's feet again. HOSER - Yeh, well the wildlife department don't give a fuck about the wildlife. That's what you've got to understand. They, all they're concerned about is doing as little as possible to keep their jobs and they fifty thousand dollars a year doing sweet F. A., they megabucks super, and um, that's what their there for. NORBURY - I got two Death Adders of Ken Sheppherd once, (2/731) #*# CONVERSATION LASTED ABOUT 20 MINS TAPE TRANSCRIPT OF CONVERSATION ON 3RD JANUARY 1992 BETWEEN RAYMOND HOSER, AND XOXOXOX A REPTILE KEEPER OF NEW SOUTH WALES. TRANSCRIPT IS DATED, 03/01/92. TAPE IS MARKED (PM). INFORMATION RELATING TO THE TRANSCRIPT: RECORDING WAS MADE FROM A PHONE CALL AT RAYMOND HOSER'S HOUSE AT 41 VILLAGE AVENUE, DONCASTER, (MELBOURNE), VICTORIA, 3108. MATERIAL UNDERLINED is not transcript. '...' means voice is inaudible and either fading in or out on the recording. ' MUMBLING ' means that it was not possible to decipher the word/s on the tape recording. NUMBERS IN BRACKETS ARE POSITIONS ON LARGE TAPE RECORDING. EXCERPTS ONLY SERPARATED BY '#*#' KEY. HOSER = RAYMOND HOSER XOXOXOX = XOXOXOX TRANSCRIPT STARTS NOW #*# (2/536) XOXOXOX - That's it mate, we're doing the right thing, and these pricks from there who wouldn't know their arse from their fucking elbows, HOSER - That's right, XOXOXOX - They're walking around taking reptiles, they're taking reptiles from the good keepers, mate. HOSER - I know that. XOXOXOX - All the people who look after stuff. You ask Charles about the set up I had here, mate. I had a wicked set up, I had all, you know kitchen melemaie, I had all big tanks made out of melamaie with solid timber doors and all that on it, really, looked furniture you know, not like snake cages, HOSER - Like furniture LAUGHING XOXOXOX - All thermostatically controlled, heating everything, HOSER - Yeh, now look, I don't deny any of that, look I know what they're like. XOXOXOX - They come here and just pick this, and this and this, took what they fucking wanted HOSER - They took what they wanted, yeh. XOXOXOX - They took Diamonds and stuff like that. HOSER - They took, the, the, the, more valuable stuff in other words, XOXOXOX - They took Diamonds and stuff like that. XOXOXOX - And um, HOSER - But they were licenced weren't they? XOXOXOX - Yeh, I had all on permit. HOSER - So why did they take them. XOXOXOX - Because I had these snakes that I shouldn't have fucking had. HOSER - So they said because you had unpermit snakes we're taking the lot. XOXOXOX - Yeh, that was their attitude. HOSER - And who, was it Gary Sims, he was the bloke that came over. XOXOXOX - Yeh. HOSER - Was there anyone else. XOXOXOX - No just him, HOSER - By himself, XOXOXOX - Yeh, he was a law enforcement officer. HOSER - Because if you had snakes on permit they've got no right to take them. XOXOXOX - He got the permits off me and said well we'll cancell your permits, you can't have them anymore, HOSER - There and then. XOXOXOX - Yeh, HOSER - So he walked in and said 'right you have a um, what was it, you had a, XOXOXOX - Tropidechis carinatus, HOSER - You had a rough scale and, and was it Eastern Brown or was it Small-eyed, XOXOXOX - No, Cryptophis nigrescens, HOSER - Right, so you had a rough-scaled and a thing over and above your permit, therefore we cancell your permit immediately, XOXOXOX - Yeh, he took it off me straight away, HOSER - He took the permit off of you, XOXOXOX - Yep, HOSER - And then he took your Diamonds and stuff as well. XOXOXOX - Yep, HOSER - Did he take every reptile you had there. XOXOXOX - No, he left me with some, HOSER - What? XOXOXOX - Carpets, HOSER - Why? XOXOXOX - Don't know, snakes aren't worth taking, HOSER - How many carpets? XOXOXOX - Two. Big ones. HOSER - Anything else. XOXOXOX - No that was it. HOSER - Well I don't think you need a permit for carpets in New South Wales at all, so he probably had a justification, at, XOXOXOX - For years and years and years, this is what shits me Raymond. HOSER - Yeh, hold it, let me tell you something. They have no right to cancell your permit on the spot, they have to go through a set procedure in writing, they can't just, it's like, if your driving along a road and a copper asks you for your driving licence he can't like take your licence off you and then charge you with driving illegally. XOXOXOX - Yeh (2/567) HOSER - That's what they've done. XOXOXOX - Yeh, HOSER - They can't do that. XOXOXOX - And afterwards, I contacted Gary Sims at er, head office and I said, look Gary, I get heaps of phone calls, what's the go, am I still licenced to go collect them and pick them up or re-release them or what? And he said, I'll get back to you, and he never got back to me, so the Phone's been ringing hot here during this summer HOSER - Right, XOXOXOX - And I've just been saying fucking ring National Parks and Wildlife and get them to pick them up. HOSER - And of course they don't XOXOXOX - Nope HOSER - Jesus Christ, so it's not a terribly good scenario is it. XOXOXOX - No, well, see they rub a lot of people the wrong way. HOSER - Oh we know that, we know that. XOXOXOX - Quite good keepers. Do you know Jeff Banks. HOSER - In where, yeh, out at er, XOXOXOX - Mount Druitt, he lives here, he did the shows at the lion park, HOSER - Yeh (2/577) XOXOXOX - He had good reptiles you know, HOSER - Right, and what happened to him? XOXOXOX - Well he's no longer in it. He told them to bash it up their arse, he's out. And there's a bloke whose been in the game for bloody thirty odd years. HOSER - Yeh, he's been with reptiles for a while, um so what happened, Jeff Banks, they just, they hassled him? XOXOXOX - yeh, they were given him a hard time. See, like they had boas and that out there at the lion park, HOSER - Right, XOXOXOX - But that was under licence of Ian Bullen who owns Bullen's animal world, well he's got a like a zoo licence from memory, HOSER - Sure, I don't want to say too many bad things about Jeff Banks, because he's obviously a mate of yours, but what I can tell you is back in nineteen eighty one, he did a deal with parks and wildlife to chuck me out of the society with the view that he would benefit out of it, and it served, in a way, I said, XOXOXOX - You should never have got out of it mate, you've did a lot of good for this fucking, HOSER - Well we know that, but Jeff Banks had thought well, if we shoot, he ran on the principle well we'll sacrifice him, and we'll be better off for it, but unfortunately with reptile keepers we've all got to stand togeather. XOXOXOX - Yeh, well you didn't take any shit from. Well what I can gather from a lot of people, I've never met you. Like what Ken Sheppherd and Charles has told me and that, you just don't take shit off anyone. HOSER - Well I do take shit, but I only take so much. XOXOXOX - Yeh, well that's what I'm saying. You stand up for yourself. All the other blokes are sucking and licking National Parks arses that bad, right, so they can get what they want, and they're knifing one keeper in the back to get credibility so that they can fucking keep,what they want. HOSER - That's right, what the wildlife do, is that they let the keepers stab each other in the back, and um, so long as the reptile people are divided they'll never ever be a match for the, XOXOXOX - We should all pool our resources and say, look let's fight these blokes, HOSER - Yeh, yeh, bury the differences and um, um, and I don't like the word fight, but essentially your right, they should all bury their differences and say okay look we disagree on minor points, #*# (2/699) XOXOXOX - See, the thing I can't understand is the National Parks and Wildlife prosecuted me, right, HOSER - Right, XOXOXOX - They took me to court, and they didn't even have the, a representative in the courtroom, the police prosecuter is the one who laid the charges on me, he fucking laughed. My solicitor went over and talked to him and he laughed, he said it's a waste of time this even being here. HOSER - That was the police prosecuter said that. XOXOXOX - That's what he said, to my solicitor, HOSER - Yeh, well that doesn't suprise, see look, XOXOXOX - Why am I doing this? I mean look he was more interested in traffic offences and stuff like that, not, fucking snakes, HOSER - Snakes, XOXOXOX - But even the Judge said it, it will be on the thing, he said um Andrew Xoxoxox, like the police prosecuter read out what I'd been charged for, when you stand, when you approach the bench and he said um, he's here, like on charges for obtaining protected fauna, and the judge said what's that, and the bloke said snakes, and the even said in the chair, bloody snakes! HOSER - Yeh, XOXOXOX - He said, bloody snakes, HOSER - Yeh, should record on it. XOXOXOX - Yeh, That'll be on there, because that was when I approached the bench, HOSER - Yeh, XOXOXOX - You'll hear for yourself, you know, HOSER - Yeh, that's the sort of thing I want. Um, see the thing is, XOXOXOX - He said bloody in the court room, he said bloody snakes. HOSER - Yeh, XOXOXOX - And laughed. HOSER - See, that's also, it will also be on there, the name of this magistrate you know. Which court was it? It was Penrith court wasn't it, yeh. But, um, because when I spoke to you last time, I wrote down a few bits and pieces and I've just got that in front of me now, so you know, what ever you told me last time, I've got in front of me, um, so um, XOXOXOX - You know Richard Moy, the solicitor said, he sort of said, well he's been in it for this amount of years, he's done, um, calls on behalf of national parks and wildlife and the police department, he's removed reptiles from houses where they've endangered people's lives, um, he's kept them, he's bred them, I've bred them in captivity, and um, the magistrate just said, fourty dollars court costs, that's it, see you later. HOSER - Yeh, it's bloody stupid, it really is. XOXOXOX - I mean, and I had to get a solicitor and all that, which um, mum and dad made me do, HOSER - And it cost you a packet no doubt. XOXOXOX - Yeh, see mum and dad, they were pissed off, because I kept these things in such good condition, you know I fed them regularly, I always had feed here for 'em, nothing ever, if anything sort of got sick, I pannickd you know, I would ring around everywhere, HOSER - That's right, yeh, XOXOXOX - And get it back on it's feet again. HOSER - Yeh, well the wildlife department don't give a fuck about the wildlife. That's what you've got to understand. They, all they're concerned about is doing as little as possible to keep their jobs and they fifty thousand dollars a year doing sweet F. A., they megabucks super, and um, that's what their there for. XOXOXOX - I got two Death Adders of Ken Sheppherd once, (2/731) #*# CONVERSATION LASTED ABOUT 20 MINS TAPE TRANSCRIPT OF CONVERSATION PRINCIPALLY BETWEEN RAYMOND HOSER (AKA PHILIP HOSER) AND SILVERTOP RADIO OPERATOR IN THE MORNING OF 3/7/88 WHEN THERE WAS A TRANSPORT STRIKE. MATERIAL UNDERLINED IS NOT TRANSCRIPT. '...' means voice is inaudible and either fading in or out on the recording. CONVERSATION WAS IN TAXI NUMBER T-8000, SILVERTOP 134, AND THE CAR WAS IN RICHMOND AT THE TIME. KEY. H = HOSER (TAXI DRIVER) R = RADIO OPERATOR (SILVERTOP) TRANSCRIPT STARTS NOW R - ...the usual practice of multiple hiring, but what we're trying to do is make sure we've got enough cars to cover all the bookings we've got and as many bookings as we can get. Ah, at the moment we're not doubling but from five O'clock onwards we've tried to double as many bookings as we can so that we keep as many cars in the area. Any car that goes out to Tullamarine and sits out there and has breakfast this morning ought to have their heads read. HOSER HITS HIS DIGITAL BUTTON TO NOTIFY THE RADIO OPERATOR THAT HE WANTS TO TALK WITH HIM R - One three four? H - Yeh, does that mean basically, you'll be ah giving driver's two addresses to go to, and ah, they'll go to the first address pick up and then, go to the second address and pick up the next fare? R - You go to the first address, pick that up, and keep going to the second address and pick that up, and go to wherever eith, both addresses say. There's some going straight to Tulla, there's some going to the city, there's some going to the city, North Melbourne, city, West Melbourne, Port Melbourne, and then the city, Hawthorn and things like that. City and South Melbourne. We're trying to make them as close to final destinations as we can, and we've tried to make the pick ups as close to one another as they can. Um, you know the people will have to put up with a little inconvinience, but we'll do the best we can for everybody. All you'll have to do is do your best for the customers. We hope that you can do the job well, because we're trying to make sure that you get the best out of today. Um, all we can hope is that your willing to work as well as you can. R - Prospects that I've got at the moment, South Yarra, Cheltenham, Burwood, South Yarra again, Mordiallac, Ormond, Toorak, ... END OF TAPE AND TRANSCRIPT TAPE TRANSCRIPT OF COURT CASE ON 4TH MARCH 1991 WHERE DERRY ASHTON OF VICROADS WAS CHARGED WITH ASSAULT AND OTHER CHARGES. TRANSCRIPT IS DATED, 04/03/91. TAPE IS MARKED (PM). INFORMATION RELATING TO THE TRANSCRIPT: RECORDING WAS MADE AT MELBOURNE MAGISTRATE'S COURT. MATERIAL UNDERLINED is not transcript. '...' means voice is inaudible and either fading in or out on the recording. ' MUMBLING ' means that it was not possible to decipher the word/s on the tape recording. NUMBERS IN BRACKETS ARE POSITIONS ON LARGE TAPE RECORDING. EXCERPTS ONLY SEPARATED BY '#*#' KEY. OLSEN = GEORGE MARTIN OLSEN HOSER = RAYMOND (AKA PHILIP) HOSER MAHER = BARRY MAHER (MAGISTRATE) ASHTON = DERRY ASHTON (DEFENDING HIMSELF) FEMALE = CLERK IN COURT (IN FRONT OF MAGISTRATE) MALE VOICE = UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOICE TRANSCRIPT STARTS NOW #*# (1/363) FEMALE - All stand FEMALE - This sitting of Melbourne magistrate's court is now resumed. #*# (1/422) HOSER - No further witnesses then. MAHER - Yes ASHTON - I call inspector George Olsen MALE VOICE - George Olsen OLSEN - I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give to the court in this case shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, my full name is George Martin Olsen and I'm from the Roads Corporation stationed in Hawthorn. ASHTON - Inspector Olsen, on the afternoon of the seventh of november nineteen eighty nine were you on duty in the Elms bus park at Flemington racecourse. OLSEN - That's correct. ASHTON - Did you bear witness to an incident involving the complainant and defendant in these proceedings. OLSEN - I did. (1/436) ASHTON - Would you describe that incident to the court please. OLSEN - My recollection is that it was late in the afternoon of that day, sometime after the run of the cup itself and I believe you and I were talking at the bottom of a ramp that leads out on to Fisher parade which is half way between the main entrance and the Elms car park and Fisher parade itself, um, we were facing Fisher parade and at that time a person I know as Philip or Raymond Hoser was taking photos of both you and I. And, within a few minutes of that happening you proceeded to walk up that ramp which led out on to Fisher parade and you were about perhaps twenty percent or thirty percent of the way up that ramp and you walked around the front of Mister Hoser who was himself proceeding up that ramp, ah, a moment or two after you had started to walk up there I also followed you up and at that stage you had walked around the front of Mister Hoser and he kept walking straight ahead towards Fisher parade as if he was going out of the gate and to prevent him walking through you, you raised your arm and he walked into you and you held his arms there. Um, I heard you say to him, were you taking pictures of me, and he replied yes, if you think that's illegal, you can take me to court. He then started to yell um police, police, I'm being assaulted in a very loud voice, um at that stage Mister Hodgens came over, I didn't hear what he said, but he came between you and Mister Hoser, he um, I couldn't hear what he said, he just came between you and um, at that stage once he arrived Philip Hoser just took off towards the main entrance of the car park area, and fairly fast, and there were a number of people in that area, there were certainly uniformed police there, which he also ran past, um, he didn't seem to take any notice of them and we, I lost him visually in the crowd. ASHTON - Did you at any stage see the defendant punch the complainant. OLSEN - No, ASHTON - Did you at any stage see the defendant kick the complainant. OLSEN - No, ASHTON - Did you at any stage see the defendant remove or attempt to remove from the posession of the complainant any item of camera equipment. OLSEN - No not at all. ASHTON - Did you at any time, see the defendant with a part of either of his hands remove some film from his camera? OLSEN - No, ASHTON - Did you at any time see the defendant damage or attempt to damage the complainants camera in any way. OLSEN - No I didn't (1/485) ASHTON - Did you assault the complainant in any way? OLSEN - No ASHTON - Did you observe any person assault the complainant in any way? OLSEN - No. ASHTON - Did you at any stage restrict or attempt to restrict the movement of the complainant? OLSEN - No. ASHTON - What other officers did you see standing in the immediate vicinity of the complainant, during and at the completion of the incident? OLSEN - Well I can, course myself, you um, Len Hodgens, um I know other officers were on duty that day, but I can't recall who else was at that, in that immediate vicinity. (1/498) END OF ASHTON'S QUESTIONS AND EVIDENCE IN CHIEF HOSER - Um your worship can I please show a photograph. MAHER - Yes go ahead yes. HOSER - Um, could please identify the three, the man in the middle and the two on either side of him. OLSEN - Um, the man in the middle is Derry Ashton, um to his left, the fellow to his right is Andrew Douglas who is um been told to the court is in Queensland, I don't know the fellow on the left at all, he may have been a taxi or a bus operator. HOSER - Are you in that photo? OLSEN - Yes, yes. HOSER - Your standing on one side of Derry Ashton, OLSEN - That's to his left, yes, HOSER - And Andrew Douglas is the other side of Derry Ashton. OLSEN - That's correct. #*# (1/554) HOSER - I put it to you that there were no police within shouting distance. OLSEN - That's not so. HOSER - So, if I had called for police, police would have come. OLSEN - I don't know, there was a substantial amount of noise there after that period of time after the cup had run also, um, whether they would have heard you I don't know, but I do recall you running past them, I would have thought you would have run up to them and complained to them. OLSEN - You wanted their attention. HOSER - Mister Olsen, are you aware, you are the only person so far who has given evidence that I actually ran past police. OLSEN - Well I can only say what I saw. HOSER - Right, well, Mister Olsen, do you recall following, do you recall me taking a photograph of Mister Ashton and then walking off. OLSEN - You were going up the ramp, yes. HOSER - Right. OLSEN - You were heading in that direction anyway. HOSER - Do you recall following me with Mister Ashton? OLSEN - I'm sorry? HOSER - Do you recall Mister Ashton then following me? OLSEN - Yes, yes, correct. HOSER - Do you recall following Mister Ashton (1/568) OLSEN - Yes, I was um I suppose approximately three metres four metres behind him. HOSER - Do you recall Ashton grabbing me, and stating, did you take a photograph then? OLSEN - Was that two questions or one? HOSER - That is a statement by Ashton. Do you recall Ashton grabbing me. Do you recall Ashton grabbing me for starters? OLSEN - No HOSER - Do you recall Ashton stating did you take a photograph then? OLSEN - What his exact words were I don't remember, but he did ask you if you were taking photographs of him. HOSER - Do you recall me immediately saying your touching me, your assaulting me. OLSEN - I don't, no. HOSER - Do you recall, do you recall Derry Ashton's reply, yeh I know, did you take the photograph, without my approval. OLSEN - I've got no recollection, no. HOSER - Is it possible that he might have said that? OLSEN - I, I don't know. HOSER - Is it possible, yes or no? OLSEN - I don't know. I don't know, HOSER - I'll read it to you. Is there a possibility that Derry Ashton might have said something you might not have heard? OLSEN - That's possible, I was about four metres behind him so he may have said somehing to you that I didn't hear. HOSER - So he may have said something that you didn't hear. OLSEN - It's possible. HOSER - And then do you recall me saying, yes, take me to court, it's not illegal. OLSEN - There was certainly something along those lines, I heard that statement by you yes, yes I took a photo, a, take me to court if you think it's illegal. HOSER - Did I say yes take me to court it's not illegal or did I say something else. OLSEN - I don't remember the exact words you used. HOSER - You were there. OLSEN - It was about a year, it was about a year and a half so, HOSER - That's a good line, I'll remember that. MAHER - Look, HOSER - Sorry, um, do you, sorry your worship, do you recall me, er, sorry do you recall, do you recall me saying something about yes take me to court it's not illegal. OLSEN - That's, along those lines, something like that yes. TAPE TRANSCRIPT OF COURT CASE ON 4TH MARCH 1991 WHERE DERRY ASHTON OF VICROADS WAS CHARGED WITH ASSAULT AND OTHER CHARGES. TRANSCRIPT IS DATED, 04/03/91. TAPE IS MARKED (PM). INFORMATION RELATING TO THE TRANSCRIPT: RECORDING WAS MADE AT MELBOURNE MAGISTRATE'S COURT. MATERIAL UNDERLINED is not transcript. '...' means voice is inaudible and either fading in or out on the recording. ' MUMBLING ' means that it was not possible to decipher the word/s on the tape recording. NUMBERS IN BRACKETS ARE POSITIONS ON LARGE TAPE RECORDING. EXCERPTS ONLY SEPARATED BY '#*#' KEY. OLSEN = GEORGE MARTIN OLSEN HOSER = RAYMOND (AKA PHILIP) HOSER MAHER = BARRY MAHER (MAGISTRATE) ASHTON = DERRY ASHTON (DEFENDING HIMSELF) FEMALE = CLERK IN COURT (IN FRONT OF MAGISTRATE) MALE VOICE = UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOICE TRANSCRIPT STARTS NOW #*# (1/363) FEMALE - All stand FEMALE - This sitting of Melbourne magistrate's court is now resumed. #*# (1/422) HOSER - No further witnesses then. MAHER - Yes ASHTON - I call inspector George Olsen MALE VOICE - George Olsen OLSEN - I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give to the court in this case shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, my full name is George Martin Olsen and I'm from the Roads Corporation stationed in Hawthorn. ASHTON - Inspector Olsen, on the afternoon of the seventh of november nineteen eighty nine were you on duty in the Elms bus park at Flemington racecourse. OLSEN - That's correct. ASHTON - Did you bear witness to an incident involving the complainant and defendant in these proceedings. OLSEN - I did. (1/436) ASHTON - Would you describe that incident to the court please. OLSEN - My recollection is that it was late in the afternoon of that day, sometime after the run of the cup itself and I believe you and I were talking at the bottom of a ramp that leads out on to Fisher parade which is half way between the main entrance and the Elms car park and Fisher parade itself, um, we were facing Fisher parade and at that time a person I know as Philip or Raymond Hoser was taking photos of both you and I. And, within a few minutes of that happening you proceeded to walk up that ramp which led out on to Fisher parade and you were about perhaps twenty percent or thirty percent of the way up that ramp and you walked around the front of Mister Hoser who was himself proceeding up that ramp, ah, a moment or two after you had started to walk up there I also followed you up and at that stage you had walked around the front of Mister Hoser and he kept walking straight ahead towards Fisher parade as if he was going out of the gate and to prevent him walking through you, you raised your arm and he walked into you and you held his arms there. Um, I heard you say to him, were you taking pictures of me, and he replied yes, if you think that's illegal, you can take me to court. He then started to yell um police, police, I'm being assaulted in a very loud voice, um at that stage Mister Hodgens came over, I didn't hear what he said, but he came between you and Mister Hoser, he um, I couldn't hear what he said, he just came between you and um, at that stage once he arrived Philip Hoser just took off towards the main entrance of the car park area, and fairly fast, and there were a number of people in that area, there were certainly uniformed police there, which he also ran past, um, he didn't seem to take any notice of them and we, I lost him visually in the crowd. ASHTON - Did you at any stage see the defendant punch the complainant. OLSEN - No, ASHTON - Did you at any stage see the defendant kick the complainant. OLSEN - No, ASHTON - Did you at any stage see the defendant remove or attempt to remove from the posession of the complainant any item of camera equipment. OLSEN - No not at all. ASHTON - Did you at any time, see the defendant with a part of either of his hands remove some film from his camera? OLSEN - No, ASHTON - Did you at any time see the defendant damage or attempt to damage the complainants camera in any way. OLSEN - No I didn't (1/485) ASHTON - Did you assault the complainant in any way? OLSEN - No ASHTON - Did you observe any person assault the complainant in any way? OLSEN - No. ASHTON - Did you at any stage restrict or attempt to restrict the movement of the complainant? OLSEN - No. ASHTON - What other officers did you see standing in the immediate vicinity of the complainant, during and at the completion of the incident? OLSEN - Well I can, course myself, you um, Len Hodgens, um I know other officers were on duty that day, but I can't recall who else was at that, in that immediate vicinity. (1/498) END OF ASHTON'S QUESTIONS AND EVIDENCE IN CHIEF HOSER - Um your worship can I please show a photograph. MAHER - Yes go ahead yes. HOSER - Um, could please identify the three, the man in the middle and the two on either side of him. OLSEN - Um, the man in the middle is Derry Ashton, um to his left, the fellow to his right is Andrew Douglas who is um been told to the court is in Queensland, I don't know the fellow on the left at all, he may have been a taxi or a bus operator. HOSER - Are you in that photo? OLSEN - Yes, yes. HOSER - Your standing on one side of Derry Ashton, OLSEN - That's to his left, yes, HOSER - And Andrew Douglas is the other side of Derry Ashton. OLSEN - That's correct. #*# (1/554) HOSER - I put it to you that there were no police within shouting distance. OLSEN - That's not so. HOSER - So, if I had called for police, police would have come. OLSEN - I don't know, there was a substantial amount of noise there after that period of time after the cup had run also, um, whether they would have heard you I don't know, but I do recall you running past them, I would have thought you would have run up to them and complained to them. OLSEN - You wanted their attention. HOSER - Mister Olsen, are you aware, you are the only person so far who has given evidence that I actually ran past police. OLSEN - Well I can only say what I saw. HOSER - Right, well, Mister Olsen, do you recall following, do you recall me taking a photograph of Mister Ashton and then walking off. OLSEN - You were going up the ramp, yes. HOSER - Right. OLSEN - You were heading in that direction anyway. HOSER - Do you recall following me with Mister Ashton? OLSEN - I'm sorry? HOSER - Do you recall Mister Ashton then following me? OLSEN - Yes, yes, correct. HOSER - Do you recall following Mister Ashton (1/568) OLSEN - Yes, I was um I suppose approximately three metres four metres behind him. HOSER - Do you recall Ashton grabbing me, and stating, did you take a photograph then? OLSEN - Was that two questions or one? HOSER - That is a statement by Ashton. Do you recall Ashton grabbing me. Do you recall Ashton grabbing me for starters? OLSEN - No HOSER - Do you recall Ashton stating did you take a photograph then? OLSEN - What his exact words were I don't remember, but he did ask you if you were taking photographs of him. HOSER - Do you recall me immediately saying your touching me, your assaulting me. OLSEN - I don't, no. HOSER - Do you recall, do you recall Derry Ashton's reply, yeh I know, did you take the photograph, without my approval. OLSEN - I've got no recollection, no. HOSER - Is it possible that he might have said that? OLSEN - I, I don't know. HOSER - Is it possible, yes or no? OLSEN - I don't know. I don't know, HOSER - I'll read it to you. Is there a possibility that Derry Ashton might have said something you might not have heard? OLSEN - That's possible, I was about four metres behind him so he may have said somehing to you that I didn't hear. HOSER - So he may have said something that you didn't hear. OLSEN - It's possible. HOSER - And then do you recall me saying, yes, take me to court, it's not illegal. OLSEN - There was certainly something along those lines, I heard that statement by you yes, yes I took a photo, a, take me to court if you think it's illegal. HOSER - Did I say yes take me to court it's not illegal or did I say something else. OLSEN - I don't remember the exact words you used. HOSER - You were there. OLSEN - It was about a year, it was about a year and a half so, HOSER - That's a good line, I'll remember that. MAHER - Look, HOSER - Sorry, um, do you, sorry your worship, do you recall me, er, sorry do you recall, do you recall me saying something about yes take me to court it's not illegal. OLSEN - That's, along those lines, something like that yes. HOSER - ...me screaming out police police police, the first time was very muffled as I was struggling at the time. OLSEN - I, I recall you saying police police, I'm being assaulted, but that was all, you certainly weren't being assaulted by me or Derry Ashton. HOSER - That's the next line, ... #*# (1/627) HOSER - You don't recall my voice being muffled at all because I was getting beaten or anything like that. OLSEN - No HOSER - Do you recall me struggling in any way. OLSEN - No HOSER - Mister Olsen, just before I, I'll come back to this, do you recall assaulting me on the seventh of April nineteen eighty nine at Tullamarine airport. OLSEN - No HOSER - Did you threaten to assault me with the exact words, look pal, look I'll assault you pal. OLSEN - No. HOSER - You would presumably then have no objections to me providing you with a transcript and playing in this court a tape recording of that incident. MAHER - Of what. Of What? HOSER - Him assaulting me on the seventh of april. MAHER - What on earth will this prove. HOSER - It's just the credibility of the witness your worship. MAHER - Well you've put it all to him, why do you want to play a tape recording. HOSER - Well to show that he's a liar. HOSER - Okay I'll go on. #*# (1/698) HOSER - Nothing. OLSEN - It was a year and a half ago. HOSER - So you, would it be fair to say that you were too busy holding on to me to make sure I didn't escape? OLSEN - No, I didn't touch you at all. HOSER - I put it to you that you touched me and you also let one or two punches or elbows or something go in my back and upper back and lower neck. OLSEN - No I didn't touch you at all. HOSER - Just like you didn't touch me on the seventh of April. OLSEN - That's correct. #*# (1/719) OLSEN - It's not a very good quality tape recording. HOSER - I don't have limitless funds to buy the best tape recorders, however. MAHER - Look, can we get on with this case rather than having you two with snide remarks with him calling it the ... recording you ... HOSER - Do you recall Len Hodgens then asking did you ask for his permission to take his photo. #*# (2/058) HOSER - Mister Olsen how many years have you been with Vicroads. OLSEN - Ooh, approximately fifteen years. HOSER - How many years have you known Derry Ashton? OLSEN - Fifteen years. HOSER - Is it true. Mister Olsen, I'll produce to you here a transcript of the incident, on the day in question. Can you please read it. MAHER - What's the transcript of? HOSER - It's the transcript of the tape your worship. HOSER - I'll be giving, you can get a copy too your worship. MAHER - Well, MAHER - And what is the summary of events in front of it. HOSER - Ah, that's my version of events. MAHER - Exactly it's your version of them HOSER - Ignore the first page and the transcript commences on the second page, theres a key at the bottom of the first page as to what the OVA, H, and the MWH stand for OLSEN - Does it start on the second page. HOSER - Yes. You will see the transcript. HOSER - Material underlined is not transcript, if there's three dots in succession, that means that it's inaudible. Would you like to read the transcript please. MAHER - I'll be the judge, unbelievable I haven't seen a copy of it thank you very much. HOSER - That's all right. MAHER - Now this is not an official transcript is it. HOSER - Sorry. MAHER - This is not an official transcript is it. HOSER - It is as efficient as is possible from the tape your worship. MAHER - Official I said. Official transcript. HOSER - Oh no no no no. It's not an official. MAHER - This doesn't contain what was said on that tape recording. HOSER - Yes it does. MAHER - No it doesn't, because it, it has comments afterwards, HOSER - Underlined MAHER - ... like not talking to Hoser but to other RTA officers, HOSER - Yes, MAHER - While referring to Ashton. That doesn't say that on the tape does it. HOSER - No, I've already stated that what is underlined is not transcript. MAHER - This is not a transcript. HOSER - Your worship what is underlined is not transcript. MAHER - This is not a transcript when it's got your comments on it. MAHER - I don't accept this as evidence. MAHER - It's not evidence at all. HOSER - Not the transcript. MAHER - Look, I appreciate that your running this prosecution yourself, but the trouble is that every document that you've put before me has got your comments all over it. HOSER - Oh the underlined bits of transcript. MAHER - Yes. HOSER - That was written for the benefit, MAHER - Look, that can't, so I'll put it this way, your in the position as an informant, now if a police officer did that he would be locked up for contempt of court. HOSER - Sorry about that. MAHER - Because that's an attempt to sway the court to a certain view. HOSER - Okay, well if I can cross out these underlined bits, MAHER - No, I'm not going to allow that. HOSER - No, MAHER - I'm not going to allow that as evidence. It is not an official transcript, it hasn't been done by an official transcriber, that's why all I wanted to do to see the thing to see what it looked like. You can't put that as evidence. You can ask him questions about it, but you can't put it into evidence. HOSER - Okay. HOSER - So having given your evidence, is it possible that what is in this transcript was in fact said on the day in question? (2/129) OLSEN - I've got no idea. HOSER - Is it possible. Yes or no OLSEN - I, I didn't read that thoroughly MAHER - Well you had a look through it. You've seen a few lines of it. OLSEN - I've got no idea. MAHER - Now come on, you've had a look through the first few lines, is it yes or no? SHOUTING OLSEN - Well I have no idea if that was what was said your worship. MAHER - Well I don't know who would have. OLSEN - Well, I wouldn't your worship, I can only say what I heard, and, MAHER - The innocent man! MAHER - Yes go on. #*# (2/192) HOSER - And do you recall writing out a ticket for me in my taxi on the seventh of april nineteen eighty nine for unattended taxi and a fourty dollar fine. OLSEN - Again I'm not sure of the date, but that's true. HOSER - Well there's a copy of the ticket. MAHER - Well he said it's true. HOSER - Right, okay. And I put it to you that was interfered with passengers of mine as I was dropping off there at Tullamarine airport on the same day. OLSEN - I don't know anything about that. (2/202) HOSER - You don't know anything about interfering with passengers of mine on the same day, on the seventh of April nineteen eighty nine? OLSEN - No. HOSER - You don't remember a thing about it. OLSEN - I don't know what your talking about. HOSER - Right, on the seventh of april nineteen eighty nine you issued, wrote out a ticket for me for unattended vehicle, at Tullamarine airport, do you recall writing out that ticket. OLSEN - That would be correct yes. HOSER - Are you aware of the circumstances in which one can have an unattended vehicle. OLSEN - Yes, HOSER - Can you please tell me what they are. OLSEN - Well your not present. Your vehicle was parked as I recall opposite the international air terminal and you simply weren't there and you was in a two minute loading area. HOSER - That's correct, now do you recall asking me why that vehicle was unattended or do you recall just writing out a ticket. MAHER - How's this relevant. HOSER - It's just to show that Nister Olsen um, well, er, if you'll just bear with me for a moment and I'll get us back onto this case. MAHER - Thank you for ... (2/229) #*# (2/249) HOSER - Right. You're aware that Peter Bell initiated, or Vicroads all took statements off a number of people in relation to this incident. OLSEN - Yes. HOSER - Why didn't you give a statement. OLSEN - I wasn't asked. HOSER - I put it to you that you didn't give a statement because you didn't want to incriminate your friend. OLSEN - I simply wasn't asked. HOSER - I put to you your telling lies again. OLSEN - Well, no that's not true, because the day after the Melbourne cup I left for overseas for a fair period of time. HOSER - And when did you return? OLSEN - Oooh, January the tenth. HOSER - Right, well yes or no. Did Derry Ashton intercept me? OLSEN - I wouldn't say intercept you. He stepped in fron